The recognized Gifts of the Holy Spirit (Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans) enable us to live a holy Christian life. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are:
Wisdom - desire for the things of God, and to direct our whole life and all our actions to His honor and glory
Understanding - enable us to know more clearly the mysteries of faith
Counsel - warn us of the deceits of the devil, and of the dangers to salvation
Fortitude - strengthen us to do the will of God in all things
Knowledge - enable us to discover the will of God in all things
Piety - love God as a Father, and obey Him because we love Him
Fear of the Lord - have a dread of sin and fear of offending God
(See Isaiah 11:2-3)
Not to be confused with the Charismatic gifts (1 Corinthians 12)
word of wisdom / message of wisdom
word of knowledge / message of knowledge
faith
gifts of healing
miracles / miraculous powers
prophecy / prophesying / prophets
discernment of spirits / distinguishing of spirits
speaking in tongues / varieties of tongues / speaking in different kinds of tongues
interpretation of tongues
Or the Fruits of the Holy Spirit…
Oddly, I don’t recall Complaining on any similar list. In fact, St. Benedict’s Rule has some rather negative things to say about murmuring or grumbling, that is complaining.
Ah, Joe, we believe that there is a continuity and development through the Bible, with the same God revealed from the time of Abraham through Moses, the kings and prophets, to Jesus. Hence, we cannot just remove the Old Testament–or we would not include it in our Bible. Looking back (I cut and pasted) I would say “fear of the Lord” should have less emphasis on “fear” and more on “awareness”, which is to say that in fear of the Lord, we are aware of God’s presence in our life and desire to live in a way in harmony with God’s call.
As for nothing about “living a Christian life” it may not be said in those exact words. However, Matt 5: 14, 16 speak of not being hidden, but your light must shine before others. (Note Matt 5:17-18 on the Law and Prophets not passing away before it is all fulfilled). Mt 5-7 continues with a series of descriptions of how are are to live in accord with the “greater righteousness”. Matt 18 speaks of how to treat others, especially in forgiveness. Luke 9:52–19:45 gives many stories that help show what the Christian life is like. Paul, near the end of several of his letters, speaks about sinful ways to avoid, and virtues to live. Ephesians and Colossians come quickly to mind, but also Romans, especially 12-16. Also, much of Philippians (esp. 1:27-2:15; 4:1-9). I could go on–the list is nearly endless. While the precise words you use may not appear, we are called to live with God by loving as Jesus loved us (John 14: 25). All this is encompassed in “living the Christian life”.
True, many, if not all, have a limited understanding of all that the life asks of us–but by living in grace, and in the love of God, then Jesus dwells in us, and reveals himself to us (Jn 14:22) and continues to work with us, pruning us so that we bear even more fruit (Jn 15:2). We are not yet perfect, but God so loves us that he will not stop until we are perfect. That is why our life as Christians is a journey, a growing, not a one-moment-for-all thing. That moment is important, even essential, but unless we continue to live in Christ, what difference does it make?
So does being honest not fit in with the gifts at all?
I have enough trouble trying to be a good person as an Agnostic. I can not imagine how hard it would be to try to be a good person of faith, knowing I was doomed to fail.
I would think the gifts of the Holy Spirit of Fortitude and Piety would lead us to honesty. However, a spirit of complaining and grumbling would be against the acceptance included, for example, in Fear (Awareness) of the Lord, among others.
Actually, while being a person of faith does make it more likely we will fail in being “good”–the bar is higher–but we also have assurance that “being good” is not what is really asked of us. The ultimate commandment is to love: Love God with all that you are and have, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Being good helps us to love well, but it’s more as a secondary goal. And, as people who live in faith, we also have assurance that our sins will be forgiven when we repent and ask. This means that, even though we fail (on one level), we also can get the benefit of our efforts to love in how our spirit grows in holiness and virtue.
Reminds me of a book written by a young secular journalist interviewing women of faith. When she came to a convent to interview an elderly sister, she was feeling sorry for them, since they had lived their lives without being able to make their own choices in so many large and small decisions, and so on. She was surprised that the sister she was interviewing felt sorry for her: so young, with so much of her life ahead of her, and she had no guide for how to make good decisions she would have no need to regret in later years.
Mr Doty I might understand what you were saying if you would try not to sound superior to others and just say it with a KISS ~ Keep It Simple (for the) Stupid.
“The ultimate commandment is to love: Love God with all that you are and have, and to love your neighbor as yourself.” - Bunnyface
??? ~ Love God > love neighbor = love self
“And, as people who live in faith, we also have assurance that our sins will be forgiven when we repent and ask. This means that, even though we fail (on one level), we also can get the benefit of our efforts to love in how our spirit grows in holiness and virtue.” - Bunnyface
How is that supposed to work? It seems like many people just do whatever they want because they know all they have to do is ask forgiveness.
I know we are also supposed to forgive others, but sometimes it is way hard. Especially for things that happen over and over and over. How do you forgive and show love to someone who continually spreads hate?
Thank you for keeping it simple, so I could understand what you are saying. I don’t agree with everything, but I understand.
So what if someone does direct hate at you personally and says bad things about you to others? What if this person hurts the ones you love? How are you supposed to forgive someone who purposefully directs hate at you and your loved ones?
What if you are expected to forgive them and understand on a regular basis? If this person has problems and you know that they do this to make them feel better about themselves, is it still supposed to be okay? What do you do when you realize you can no longer forgive this person?
How do you make peace with yourself after that realization?
Ah, but Joe, Monastic life is, even in your own terms, found in the Bible: Our religious life is inspired by what we find in the Gospels and Book of the Acts of the Apostles:
“Evangelical councils”: Chastity: Matt 19:10-12; Poverty and obedience: Matt 19:16:21. (Note that this latter also reminds us it’s not enough just to believe in Jesus Christ. “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”)
Life and prayer in common, common ownership: Acts 2: 44-47; 4:32.
Contemplation: we do as Mary did, “treasuring these things in her heart”: 2:19, 51.
And, about spreading the Gospel: a living witness is better than any amount of going out and preaching with words. But, in fact, I also do the latter, I hope and believe. Monks kept the Word of God (and what learning survived) alive though the Dark Ages, not because they were “supposed” do, but because they (ideally) dedicated themselves to God and followed God’s overwhelming call. I, and others, follow that tradition even today. It is your blanket rejection of the possibility of other responses to God’s call than fits into your system of belief that I find objectionable. How can you condemn us without knowing us, without coming and seeing what it is we do? What do you really know of us, of me, apart from what your own community has told you of us?
Also, you said, “While the Hebrew Scriptures are important to read, a Believer in Christ Jesus should not adopt/adopt what is in them as a personal doctrine.”
But, in fact, we do not adopt them as “personal doctrine”. we have a living tradition, rooted in the Gospel and our 2000 years of living that faith, a community that heard the teaching spoken from Jesus himself and was promised the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is that community that helps us understand the Gospel–which, as I’m sure LuvH8 will admit, is not crystal clear on its own–by providing us with doctrines, theologies and spiritualities to help understand and live as Jesus calls us. It is not “personal doctrine,” but what we have learned through many generations, often painfully.
Yes, LuvH8, it can be hard to forgive someone who injures you repeatedly, or who seems steeped in hate.
One key is to explore what they hold dear: Hatred is rooted in passion, which means they have feelings. What do they care about? Is it at all positive? Can you build a common understanding on that positive feeling, that love or commitment?
Another is to realize that forgiveness does two things: it not only releases the other person from the harm of their sin, it also releases you from that burden. It can be a statement that what you did to me was wrong, but I will not let your hatred and littleness burden me, I will not let you determine my response. I am still free to love you.
And, also, remember that one way to understand love is to do what is good for the one you love. In that sense, loving a hateful person might well—no: should involve keeping them from further injuring yourself or others. Some of the hardest forms of love may involve turning others in to face the consequences of their actions, as a parent might turn in a child to be arrested so they can get help. Martin Sheen cared enough for his son, Charlie, to do that.
If you find you can no longer forgive a person, it is time to turn to God for help carrying that burden of his sin. Actually, it’s long past time to turn to God–we should early and often turn to God for help forgiving others, but better to do it late than never.
The person who does “whatever he wants” because he can be forgiven still doesn’t get it. God gave us the law not arbitrarily, but because certain behaviors fit our nature. There are things that are good for us, and others that are bad. When we sin, we warp and cripple our nature. If we don’t resist sin, the damage is that much the worse.
Still, we are good at deceiving ourselves–which is why the Catholic Church realized the value of confessing our sins to the minister of the Church: by admitting to ourselves, to God, and to a living member of the community, we learn to be more honest, and we also have the possibility of good advice, of a more objective evaluation of our behavior. I find that some tend to err on the side of leniency, forgiving themselves too easily; others err on the side of scruples, holding themselves too harshly to a strict standard. For both, some external word is helpful for coming to a more balanced view of their life with God.
But, Joe, we live by the spirit of community and joint worship. The details of where we might happen to live, whether or rooms are in one building or several, are not so important. We life together because, perhaps, we are weaker and need that assurance of the common life and schedule. Would you deny us that support?
Acts 2:42: “They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.” What part of our life is against any of this? We hold to the teaching of the Apostles as we have received it, in the Bible (daily Lectio) and the entire revelation of God, we live the communal life, we celebrate the breaking of the bread, and meet 4 times daily for prayers together, as well as our own private prayers. Naturally, since we must pray together, we have rites and rules that govern our prayers–but that is to allow us to pray freely together.
2:44 “All who believed … had all things in common; they would sell their property and possessions and divide them among all according to each one’s need.” We hold our possessions in common, and live the Communist maxim (with rather greater success) of “from each according to his ability; to each according to his need.” We support ourselves, and supply charity to others as we can.
I didn’t cite 4:34, but 4:32: “The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common.” Now, it is true that your interpretation is probably nearer the original intent, as the following verses (through to 5:4, or even 5:11) shows. However, the spirit of the text is to hold possessions lightly, to use them not only for my own good, but for the good of all. We simply take it as it speaks, as well as texts like Matt 19: 16-21: we have such an overwhelming call to follow that we cannot burden ourselves with excessive concern for wife and family, or posessions, and choose to abstain from them. We stay free so that we may follow Christ, not because marriage and family or possessions are bad. Indeed, we hold them valuable enough that we will not give them only a part of the attention they really need.
I could also look at texts like 1 Cor 12–13, and how it speaks of the gifts given us not so much for our own profit, but for the good of the whole Body of Christ. That too is an ideal we aspire to.
I am still trying to understand your final comment about “proof-texting” to support my own or the Catholic Church’s agenda–I am simply pointing out that our way of life does not contradict the Gospel or the early Church faith.
It would be more extreme to insist that this is the only way to Christ, or even the best way. I do not, and never have claimed that. I only say that, from my own experience, this is a valid vocation, that it fits all that I understand of the Gospels and the entire Bible, and that God calls each person in a way suited to that person’s gifts.
Or perhaps it’s a form of “condemned if you do; condemned if you don’t.” That is, it seems that if I use a text more literally than you like, I am “proof texting” while if I use it more symbolically, I am reading into it. Moreover, if I have no Bible backing, I am simply wrong. Under these conditions, how can I do things right? Are you the only one with a correct understanding? I thought that was one argument you have with my Church–that we have authorities that can say if an interpretation is incorrect. (And, I believe, with a better historical and Biblical argument to their authority than your own insistence on Sola Scriptura.) You cannot have it both ways. Furthermore, while I could go much further into exegesis, my lengthy arguments already go on longer than I would like; I am forced to assume that the exegetical background is there or could be added without too much difficulty by a scholar.
I think you all need to back up a minute and ask yourselves “What is God/Yahweh doing here anyway?”
My simple answer (I’m not a theologian just a simple believer) is “raising children.” He created us to be His companions. He is trying to show us how we should live so we will be fit for citizenship the Kingdom.
In the meantime use the 10 Commandments as they were meant – as the ways to a happy, healthy, whole life filled with blessings – one that will prepare you for the life with Him that He has promised - all the while knowing that there s nothing you can do to earn that privilege.
His Son was sent to be the final and complete sacrifice for our wrong-doing, our walking away from God and “doing it my way” … we cannot help but fail if we try to make it back on our own. It is only through belief in His Son and His grace that we do.
Great! Now I’m reminded of something my friend used to say.
For all of those who have been wondering where God is, He’s been hanging out in my closet drinking (mineral water) and eating (nacho flavored corn chips).
(Names have been altered to avoid being deleted.)
Hmm… wonder how many people that quote will annoy. It was a joke (I think)
Why are there so many different religions, and people who look for answers from other sources in addition to or instead of The Bible?
Why can an average person not pick up The Bible, read it once and say, “Ah! Now I understand.”?
Why do you tell us what The Bible does not tell us, instead of what it does? Why not tell us what the Jesus’s message of Salvation is?
BTW - I have noticed some differences in your posts for about 2 weeks, I hope everything is going okay for you in your real life. If not, I hope it improves soon. Seeing as how I am agnostic, it would kind of be weird to pray for someone, but I know there are those here who would willingly pray for you if it would help.
One of the people in question died last March (I had not realized it has been that long.) I know she had emotional and physical problems, for which I gave a lot of leeway. After a certain point though I just could not forgive anymore. Now I am more relieved she is dead than grieved. I know I grieved for her before she died, because she refused to try to get help for her self-hatred/depression and instead blamed others for causing it. Now, I can’t seem to let go of the guilt for the relief.
Another person whose hate spreading is so terrible to me also, I can’t see how to stop without causing the situation to get worse. I do as much damage control as possible. A liitle over 2 years left to go. Unfortunately, my own mental health problems have not helped this situation. I still become overwhelmed by the world really easily.
@LuvH8, it can be hard to turn to God, much as it can be hard to, say, speak about your feelings when you are not used to it. It feels artificial. OK–let it be strange and awkward, but do it anyway, and it may come to feel easier eventually.
To turn to God, simply tell God your needs, what’s going on in your life, and so on. Your post just above is a good start: now address it to God. Remember that God will know what you are talking about, so it doesn’t need to be embarrassing, or demand a lot of explanations, unless you want to. Then ask for God’s help.
Most people pray verbally; some find it helpful to use a journal or some form of writing. Either is fine.
Another aid is to find someone who can guide you–a person of faith and prayer you know, someone in a Church you might consider being a member of, a minister or member of the clergy. They can help with “rote” prayers (useful when you don’t have the words, or need that familiarity), or with other forms of prayer and spiritual practices.
Eventually you will probably feel the need to learn more about God and the Bible and such–here your mentor can also be invaluable.
As for specifics of your struggles, it is hard to let go of guilt when someone has died–but remember that she probably struggled harder and with more suffering than she even inflicted on you. Death can be a relief, in more than one way: a letting go of a time of suffering, the departure of a tormentor, and so on.
When we cannot change the person spreading hate, I find it helps to read again a Passion account (the last few chapters of any of the Gospels, Matthew [Chapters 26-27], Mark [Ch.14-5], Luke [Ch.22-23] or John [Ch.18-19]).
Consider how much suffering Jesus accepted without responding with like hatred or violence–and then let your own suffering do as St. Paul’s did: Colossians 1:24 “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church…” Here Paul is not saying that there is anything lacking in what Christ suffered for us–but that his body, the Church, still is suffering in various ways, and that we join our suffering to Christ.
Who knows it might help. The part I have the most trouble forgiving is not the pain inflicted on myself. It is the pain inflicted on mostly my daughter but also her sister. I don’t know that I will ever forgive either of them for that.
Add: My daughter’s sister less only because she moved with her mother to another state, so avoided a lot (but not enough) of their hate/mental abuse.
Thank you Bunnyface.
I know you read the comics to enjoy yourself. It is very generous of you to take the time to offer advice. Between my anxiety attacks in church, and general anxiety when dealing with people~~~ well maybe one day. The people I speak to about those things were practically doing cartwheels at this much social interaction from me (commenting here at all). You’ve helped more than you realize, not only me but Monkey 2 as well.
Oh sorry, that was not meant to guilt you into devoting more of your free time giving advice.
@LuvH8, suffering and pain inflicted on another is very hard to forgive–but it does show how much you love the others. Build on that. Build on your sense of justice also–and then (gradually) extend that circle of “real people” or “family” (or however you characterize that circle) to others.
It is easy to love people in general. It’s not nearly so easy to love specific persons, especially when we must interact with them closely. Yet, that sort of love–with forgiveness for their flaws and hurtful acts, i.e. sins–based on the deeper and all-encompassing love of God for us is the heart of the Gospel.
When we cannot change the person spreading hate, I find it helps to read again a Passion account (the last few chapters of any of the Gospels, Matthew [Chapters 26-27], Mark [Ch.14-5], Luke [Ch.22-23] or John [Ch.18-19]).
~ Bunnyface
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
That is an extra special spiritual gift. Honesty!
ejcapulet over 14 years ago
It’s all about perspective.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
What are the 9 in-church-worship Holy Spirit’s Gifts and leadership gifts?
bmonk over 14 years ago
The recognized Gifts of the Holy Spirit (Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans) enable us to live a holy Christian life. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are:
Wisdom - desire for the things of God, and to direct our whole life and all our actions to His honor and glory Understanding - enable us to know more clearly the mysteries of faith Counsel - warn us of the deceits of the devil, and of the dangers to salvation Fortitude - strengthen us to do the will of God in all things Knowledge - enable us to discover the will of God in all things Piety - love God as a Father, and obey Him because we love Him Fear of the Lord - have a dread of sin and fear of offending God (See Isaiah 11:2-3)Not to be confused with the Charismatic gifts (1 Corinthians 12)
word of wisdom / message of wisdom word of knowledge / message of knowledge faith gifts of healing miracles / miraculous powers prophecy / prophesying / prophets discernment of spirits / distinguishing of spirits speaking in tongues / varieties of tongues / speaking in different kinds of tongues interpretation of tongues Or the Fruits of the Holy Spirit…Oddly, I don’t recall Complaining on any similar list. In fact, St. Benedict’s Rule has some rather negative things to say about murmuring or grumbling, that is complaining.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Thank You Bunnyface.
Still confused, but less so.
bmonk over 14 years ago
Ah, Joe, we believe that there is a continuity and development through the Bible, with the same God revealed from the time of Abraham through Moses, the kings and prophets, to Jesus. Hence, we cannot just remove the Old Testament–or we would not include it in our Bible. Looking back (I cut and pasted) I would say “fear of the Lord” should have less emphasis on “fear” and more on “awareness”, which is to say that in fear of the Lord, we are aware of God’s presence in our life and desire to live in a way in harmony with God’s call.
As for nothing about “living a Christian life” it may not be said in those exact words. However, Matt 5: 14, 16 speak of not being hidden, but your light must shine before others. (Note Matt 5:17-18 on the Law and Prophets not passing away before it is all fulfilled). Mt 5-7 continues with a series of descriptions of how are are to live in accord with the “greater righteousness”. Matt 18 speaks of how to treat others, especially in forgiveness. Luke 9:52–19:45 gives many stories that help show what the Christian life is like. Paul, near the end of several of his letters, speaks about sinful ways to avoid, and virtues to live. Ephesians and Colossians come quickly to mind, but also Romans, especially 12-16. Also, much of Philippians (esp. 1:27-2:15; 4:1-9). I could go on–the list is nearly endless. While the precise words you use may not appear, we are called to live with God by loving as Jesus loved us (John 14: 25). All this is encompassed in “living the Christian life”.
True, many, if not all, have a limited understanding of all that the life asks of us–but by living in grace, and in the love of God, then Jesus dwells in us, and reveals himself to us (Jn 14:22) and continues to work with us, pruning us so that we bear even more fruit (Jn 15:2). We are not yet perfect, but God so loves us that he will not stop until we are perfect. That is why our life as Christians is a journey, a growing, not a one-moment-for-all thing. That moment is important, even essential, but unless we continue to live in Christ, what difference does it make?
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
So does being honest not fit in with the gifts at all?
I have enough trouble trying to be a good person as an Agnostic. I can not imagine how hard it would be to try to be a good person of faith, knowing I was doomed to fail.
bmonk over 14 years ago
I would think the gifts of the Holy Spirit of Fortitude and Piety would lead us to honesty. However, a spirit of complaining and grumbling would be against the acceptance included, for example, in Fear (Awareness) of the Lord, among others.
Actually, while being a person of faith does make it more likely we will fail in being “good”–the bar is higher–but we also have assurance that “being good” is not what is really asked of us. The ultimate commandment is to love: Love God with all that you are and have, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Being good helps us to love well, but it’s more as a secondary goal. And, as people who live in faith, we also have assurance that our sins will be forgiven when we repent and ask. This means that, even though we fail (on one level), we also can get the benefit of our efforts to love in how our spirit grows in holiness and virtue.
Reminds me of a book written by a young secular journalist interviewing women of faith. When she came to a convent to interview an elderly sister, she was feeling sorry for them, since they had lived their lives without being able to make their own choices in so many large and small decisions, and so on. She was surprised that the sister she was interviewing felt sorry for her: so young, with so much of her life ahead of her, and she had no guide for how to make good decisions she would have no need to regret in later years.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Mr Doty I might understand what you were saying if you would try not to sound superior to others and just say it with a KISS ~ Keep It Simple (for the) Stupid.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
“The ultimate commandment is to love: Love God with all that you are and have, and to love your neighbor as yourself.” - Bunnyface
??? ~ Love God > love neighbor = love self
“And, as people who live in faith, we also have assurance that our sins will be forgiven when we repent and ask. This means that, even though we fail (on one level), we also can get the benefit of our efforts to love in how our spirit grows in holiness and virtue.” - Bunnyface
How is that supposed to work? It seems like many people just do whatever they want because they know all they have to do is ask forgiveness.
I know we are also supposed to forgive others, but sometimes it is way hard. Especially for things that happen over and over and over. How do you forgive and show love to someone who continually spreads hate?
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Mr. Doty
Thank you for keeping it simple, so I could understand what you are saying. I don’t agree with everything, but I understand.
So what if someone does direct hate at you personally and says bad things about you to others? What if this person hurts the ones you love? How are you supposed to forgive someone who purposefully directs hate at you and your loved ones?
What if you are expected to forgive them and understand on a regular basis? If this person has problems and you know that they do this to make them feel better about themselves, is it still supposed to be okay? What do you do when you realize you can no longer forgive this person?
How do you make peace with yourself after that realization?
bmonk over 14 years ago
Ah, but Joe, Monastic life is, even in your own terms, found in the Bible: Our religious life is inspired by what we find in the Gospels and Book of the Acts of the Apostles:
“Evangelical councils”: Chastity: Matt 19:10-12; Poverty and obedience: Matt 19:16:21. (Note that this latter also reminds us it’s not enough just to believe in Jesus Christ. “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”)
Life and prayer in common, common ownership: Acts 2: 44-47; 4:32.
Contemplation: we do as Mary did, “treasuring these things in her heart”: 2:19, 51.
And, about spreading the Gospel: a living witness is better than any amount of going out and preaching with words. But, in fact, I also do the latter, I hope and believe. Monks kept the Word of God (and what learning survived) alive though the Dark Ages, not because they were “supposed” do, but because they (ideally) dedicated themselves to God and followed God’s overwhelming call. I, and others, follow that tradition even today. It is your blanket rejection of the possibility of other responses to God’s call than fits into your system of belief that I find objectionable. How can you condemn us without knowing us, without coming and seeing what it is we do? What do you really know of us, of me, apart from what your own community has told you of us?
Also, you said, “While the Hebrew Scriptures are important to read, a Believer in Christ Jesus should not adopt/adopt what is in them as a personal doctrine.”
But, in fact, we do not adopt them as “personal doctrine”. we have a living tradition, rooted in the Gospel and our 2000 years of living that faith, a community that heard the teaching spoken from Jesus himself and was promised the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is that community that helps us understand the Gospel–which, as I’m sure LuvH8 will admit, is not crystal clear on its own–by providing us with doctrines, theologies and spiritualities to help understand and live as Jesus calls us. It is not “personal doctrine,” but what we have learned through many generations, often painfully.
Yes, LuvH8, it can be hard to forgive someone who injures you repeatedly, or who seems steeped in hate.
One key is to explore what they hold dear: Hatred is rooted in passion, which means they have feelings. What do they care about? Is it at all positive? Can you build a common understanding on that positive feeling, that love or commitment?
Another is to realize that forgiveness does two things: it not only releases the other person from the harm of their sin, it also releases you from that burden. It can be a statement that what you did to me was wrong, but I will not let your hatred and littleness burden me, I will not let you determine my response. I am still free to love you.
And, also, remember that one way to understand love is to do what is good for the one you love. In that sense, loving a hateful person might well—no: should involve keeping them from further injuring yourself or others. Some of the hardest forms of love may involve turning others in to face the consequences of their actions, as a parent might turn in a child to be arrested so they can get help. Martin Sheen cared enough for his son, Charlie, to do that.
If you find you can no longer forgive a person, it is time to turn to God for help carrying that burden of his sin. Actually, it’s long past time to turn to God–we should early and often turn to God for help forgiving others, but better to do it late than never.
The person who does “whatever he wants” because he can be forgiven still doesn’t get it. God gave us the law not arbitrarily, but because certain behaviors fit our nature. There are things that are good for us, and others that are bad. When we sin, we warp and cripple our nature. If we don’t resist sin, the damage is that much the worse.
Still, we are good at deceiving ourselves–which is why the Catholic Church realized the value of confessing our sins to the minister of the Church: by admitting to ourselves, to God, and to a living member of the community, we learn to be more honest, and we also have the possibility of good advice, of a more objective evaluation of our behavior. I find that some tend to err on the side of leniency, forgiving themselves too easily; others err on the side of scruples, holding themselves too harshly to a strict standard. For both, some external word is helpful for coming to a more balanced view of their life with God.
bmonk over 14 years ago
But, Joe, we live by the spirit of community and joint worship. The details of where we might happen to live, whether or rooms are in one building or several, are not so important. We life together because, perhaps, we are weaker and need that assurance of the common life and schedule. Would you deny us that support?
Acts 2:42: “They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.” What part of our life is against any of this? We hold to the teaching of the Apostles as we have received it, in the Bible (daily Lectio) and the entire revelation of God, we live the communal life, we celebrate the breaking of the bread, and meet 4 times daily for prayers together, as well as our own private prayers. Naturally, since we must pray together, we have rites and rules that govern our prayers–but that is to allow us to pray freely together.
2:44 “All who believed … had all things in common; they would sell their property and possessions and divide them among all according to each one’s need.” We hold our possessions in common, and live the Communist maxim (with rather greater success) of “from each according to his ability; to each according to his need.” We support ourselves, and supply charity to others as we can.
I didn’t cite 4:34, but 4:32: “The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common.” Now, it is true that your interpretation is probably nearer the original intent, as the following verses (through to 5:4, or even 5:11) shows. However, the spirit of the text is to hold possessions lightly, to use them not only for my own good, but for the good of all. We simply take it as it speaks, as well as texts like Matt 19: 16-21: we have such an overwhelming call to follow that we cannot burden ourselves with excessive concern for wife and family, or posessions, and choose to abstain from them. We stay free so that we may follow Christ, not because marriage and family or possessions are bad. Indeed, we hold them valuable enough that we will not give them only a part of the attention they really need.
I could also look at texts like 1 Cor 12–13, and how it speaks of the gifts given us not so much for our own profit, but for the good of the whole Body of Christ. That too is an ideal we aspire to.
I am still trying to understand your final comment about “proof-texting” to support my own or the Catholic Church’s agenda–I am simply pointing out that our way of life does not contradict the Gospel or the early Church faith.
It would be more extreme to insist that this is the only way to Christ, or even the best way. I do not, and never have claimed that. I only say that, from my own experience, this is a valid vocation, that it fits all that I understand of the Gospels and the entire Bible, and that God calls each person in a way suited to that person’s gifts.
Or perhaps it’s a form of “condemned if you do; condemned if you don’t.” That is, it seems that if I use a text more literally than you like, I am “proof texting” while if I use it more symbolically, I am reading into it. Moreover, if I have no Bible backing, I am simply wrong. Under these conditions, how can I do things right? Are you the only one with a correct understanding? I thought that was one argument you have with my Church–that we have authorities that can say if an interpretation is incorrect. (And, I believe, with a better historical and Biblical argument to their authority than your own insistence on Sola Scriptura.) You cannot have it both ways. Furthermore, while I could go much further into exegesis, my lengthy arguments already go on longer than I would like; I am forced to assume that the exegetical background is there or could be added without too much difficulty by a scholar.
Lynnelaughs over 14 years ago
I think you all need to back up a minute and ask yourselves “What is God/Yahweh doing here anyway?”
My simple answer (I’m not a theologian just a simple believer) is “raising children.” He created us to be His companions. He is trying to show us how we should live so we will be fit for citizenship the Kingdom.
In the meantime use the 10 Commandments as they were meant – as the ways to a happy, healthy, whole life filled with blessings – one that will prepare you for the life with Him that He has promised - all the while knowing that there s nothing you can do to earn that privilege.
His Son was sent to be the final and complete sacrifice for our wrong-doing, our walking away from God and “doing it my way” … we cannot help but fail if we try to make it back on our own. It is only through belief in His Son and His grace that we do.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Lynnelaughs
Great! Now I’m reminded of something my friend used to say.
For all of those who have been wondering where God is, He’s been hanging out in my closet drinking (mineral water) and eating (nacho flavored corn chips).(Names have been altered to avoid being deleted.)
Hmm… wonder how many people that quote will annoy. It was a joke (I think)
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Mr Doty If The Bible is so easy to understand:
Why are there so many different religions, and people who look for answers from other sources in addition to or instead of The Bible?
Why can an average person not pick up The Bible, read it once and say, “Ah! Now I understand.”?
Why do you tell us what The Bible does not tell us, instead of what it does? Why not tell us what the Jesus’s message of Salvation is?
BTW - I have noticed some differences in your posts for about 2 weeks, I hope everything is going okay for you in your real life. If not, I hope it improves soon. Seeing as how I am agnostic, it would kind of be weird to pray for someone, but I know there are those here who would willingly pray for you if it would help.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Bunnyface
I don’t know how to turn to God.
One of the people in question died last March (I had not realized it has been that long.) I know she had emotional and physical problems, for which I gave a lot of leeway. After a certain point though I just could not forgive anymore. Now I am more relieved she is dead than grieved. I know I grieved for her before she died, because she refused to try to get help for her self-hatred/depression and instead blamed others for causing it. Now, I can’t seem to let go of the guilt for the relief.
Another person whose hate spreading is so terrible to me also, I can’t see how to stop without causing the situation to get worse. I do as much damage control as possible. A liitle over 2 years left to go. Unfortunately, my own mental health problems have not helped this situation. I still become overwhelmed by the world really easily.
bmonk over 14 years ago
@LuvH8, it can be hard to turn to God, much as it can be hard to, say, speak about your feelings when you are not used to it. It feels artificial. OK–let it be strange and awkward, but do it anyway, and it may come to feel easier eventually.
To turn to God, simply tell God your needs, what’s going on in your life, and so on. Your post just above is a good start: now address it to God. Remember that God will know what you are talking about, so it doesn’t need to be embarrassing, or demand a lot of explanations, unless you want to. Then ask for God’s help.
Most people pray verbally; some find it helpful to use a journal or some form of writing. Either is fine.
Another aid is to find someone who can guide you–a person of faith and prayer you know, someone in a Church you might consider being a member of, a minister or member of the clergy. They can help with “rote” prayers (useful when you don’t have the words, or need that familiarity), or with other forms of prayer and spiritual practices.
Eventually you will probably feel the need to learn more about God and the Bible and such–here your mentor can also be invaluable.
As for specifics of your struggles, it is hard to let go of guilt when someone has died–but remember that she probably struggled harder and with more suffering than she even inflicted on you. Death can be a relief, in more than one way: a letting go of a time of suffering, the departure of a tormentor, and so on.
When we cannot change the person spreading hate, I find it helps to read again a Passion account (the last few chapters of any of the Gospels, Matthew [Chapters 26-27], Mark [Ch.14-5], Luke [Ch.22-23] or John [Ch.18-19]).
Consider how much suffering Jesus accepted without responding with like hatred or violence–and then let your own suffering do as St. Paul’s did: Colossians 1:24 “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church…” Here Paul is not saying that there is anything lacking in what Christ suffered for us–but that his body, the Church, still is suffering in various ways, and that we join our suffering to Christ.
I hope this helps.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Who knows it might help. The part I have the most trouble forgiving is not the pain inflicted on myself. It is the pain inflicted on mostly my daughter but also her sister. I don’t know that I will ever forgive either of them for that.
Add: My daughter’s sister less only because she moved with her mother to another state, so avoided a lot (but not enough) of their hate/mental abuse.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Thank you Bunnyface. I know you read the comics to enjoy yourself. It is very generous of you to take the time to offer advice. Between my anxiety attacks in church, and general anxiety when dealing with people~~~ well maybe one day. The people I speak to about those things were practically doing cartwheels at this much social interaction from me (commenting here at all). You’ve helped more than you realize, not only me but Monkey 2 as well.
Oh sorry, that was not meant to guilt you into devoting more of your free time giving advice.
bmonk over 14 years ago
@LuvH8, suffering and pain inflicted on another is very hard to forgive–but it does show how much you love the others. Build on that. Build on your sense of justice also–and then (gradually) extend that circle of “real people” or “family” (or however you characterize that circle) to others.
It is easy to love people in general. It’s not nearly so easy to love specific persons, especially when we must interact with them closely. Yet, that sort of love–with forgiveness for their flaws and hurtful acts, i.e. sins–based on the deeper and all-encompassing love of God for us is the heart of the Gospel.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Thank you Bunnyface, enjoy your weekend.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
When we cannot change the person spreading hate, I find it helps to read again a Passion account (the last few chapters of any of the Gospels, Matthew [Chapters 26-27], Mark [Ch.14-5], Luke [Ch.22-23] or John [Ch.18-19]). ~ Bunnyface
Those hurt the heart.
bmonk over 14 years ago
Perhaps they (the Passions) are difficult to read–but not everything that is good for you is easy.
When’s the last time you were in an aerobics class? Think of it as exercise for the soul.
DerekA over 14 years ago
Good comment Joe
DebJ4 over 14 years ago
Tuesday’s strip has ALREADY been posted at www.creators.com
FOR HEAVENS SAKE and More at www.Creators.com
http://www.creators.com/comics/cat-seeall.html