Too many people playing “fast and furious” with the details on this case. It is ironic that this program began under another name before Mr. Obama was elected. It is additionally ironic the “marked guns” were purchased at gun shops in the USA that didn’t require background checks so the Justice Dept. could ‘track’ them into Mexico. The batteries showing their locations didn’t last very long or were removed. Then Mr. Obama was elected, and Mr. Holder allowed himself to be convinced the people in charge of “fast and furious” were in the middle of an ongoing investigation. The fact the leads on that investigation had lost control of the guns and their whereabouts didn’t come to light until the death of an ATF agent.One of the biggest ironies in our relationship with Mexico is that the gun US gun sellers are supplying to Mexican cartels are being bought with money US citizens spend on cocaine and marijuana and other drugs smuggled into the USA.Captialsim at work. We sell them guns, they sell us drugs, and gov’ts stand by helplessly while citizens get caught in the crossfire and go to work in corporate prisons.“Cage of Freedom/That’s Our Prison/ We’re the jailer and prisoner combined.”Instead of blaming ANYONE for this situation, would it not be better to pass laws that make this cycle of self destruction less prevalent?Respectfully,C.
Fast and Furious occurred because our government broke the law, and forced gun retailers to break laws. How would passing additional laws be preferable to enforcing existing law?It’s unfortunate, but most of the new laws that are being suggested won’t affect criminals at all, but they have a great deal of support anyway.
The problem with your assertion about F&F is that:
1. The people who did the buying passed a background check. A background check is required on all sales from an FFL.
2. Straw purchasers, people suspected of buying guns to smuggle out of the country, were allowed to continue by the ATF’s continued pressure on FFLs to allow it to continue. There are many FFLs who were driven out of business by the ATF for refusing to participate, invoking massive audits and ultimately being forced to lose their FFL due to it.
3. The Cartels you speak of do buy some of their weapons here in the US. However, if you do a bit of googling, you’re going to find that the cartels are supplied far greater numbers of weapons from sources in the Mexican military, and corrupt militaries across central and South America. When the issue was brought up, the line was not “majority of guns seized” coming from the US, the line was “the majority of guns seized that could be traced”.
Data on google suggests that close to 70% of the weapons being supplied come out of central and south america, and are much cheaper to buy from those sources.
Clearly F&F was a bad idea, and one neither administration should have even considered. However, the US’s firearms market is not solely, nor even the majority player, responsible for the guns used by Mexican cartels.
At least, let’s be accurate about the situation south of the border, hmm?
Actually, IT IS MY BUSINESS if you are my neighbor and you might pose a threat to me and my family with that weapon in your possession.…And if I find out that you are seeking such a weapon that could be lethal to me and my family, then I am going to work to keep it out of your hands, legally and when that fails, may use other means, including forceful ones to ensure you don’t get that weapon until you can tell everybody and explain why you need such a weapon in the first place.…I don’t put up with heavily armed wacko’s in my neighborhood any more than I put up with known criminals, illegal immigrants or even registered and unregistered sex offenders, because they all invite all sorts of crime, either by committing it themselves or bringing in others that will commit crime.…And perhaps that may be what we ought to do, just like registered Sex Offenders these days, put all those out there who have shown that they want and/or are seeking firearms on a registry out there so we in the community can all look at it and assess what kind of people these are.…The downside may be that all the criminals and lowlifes out there may look at the list and then decide to only attack those people not listed on it because the assumption may be that those folks aren’t armed, but that could also be just as foolish an assumption, too because firearms can be owned illegally, too.…The upside may be that if there is a lowlife that is indeed legally owning a firearm, perhaps the community might move their Law Enforcement apparatus to work on removing those weapons from that lowlife if it is proven that they are indeed a lowlife and should not be owning firearms or any other lethal weapons that could make them a danger to the community around them.…I look at this way, if you bring a firearm to an event that I sponsor, and I found out about it, I will work on having your weapon removed or just having you removed so that you don’t pose or become a threat to the safety or security of the rest of my guests.
there was no program like Fast & Furious during GWs 8 years in the White House.-the Obama DOJ broke the laws of the USA to buy and sell weapons to Mexicans, some were Cartel members, crooks and criminals, and people died by the hundreds in Mexico.One US Border Patrol American was murdered.-Nothing like that happened under Bush.
@ Harleyquinn and Ansonia – We must be getting our details from differing sources. You both seem to believe that Holder and Obama came in and got involved, to what depth? My info suggests that the new administration was focused on other issues – health care, immigration, gitmo, etc., and trusted the men from the previous administration when they said, “We’ve got everything under control.” Micro managing is not a good thing, and it was really the duty of the house oversight committee to have identified the problems with the F&F program. Did the majority Dems drop the ball while pushing other points on their agenda? That wouldn’t surpise me. Was it the administration’s fault that legislators dropped the ball? No. Time will tell if there’s more to this, but I suggest you keep your minds open.^@ Mikaehl – I have some minor nuanced disagreement with your post, but in general, you added some good points to the discussion and did so with grace and courtesy, Thank you. It was my understanding that the guns were ‘released’ through numerous methods, but since I’m not positive, I can’t argue. You are correct that weapons come north into Mexico from South America as easily, and maybe more easily, than from the USA back to Mexico. thank you for the contribution to the debate.^@ Mneedle – the ATF may have abused their power in the past however, they are still paying for that error today. If you go to the ATF website and watch the videos of them talking to gun sellers, you see people nearly begging citizens to help them enforce the laws on the books. Laws that are no longer legal requirements, but “guidelines” which sellers may choose not to follow. Undercover cops “break laws” all the time while trying to get information necessary to arrest offenders. Maybe they just smoke some pot or snort some cocaine, maybe they sell drugs or guns, but they do it with the higher goal of putting a very bad person behind bars.^@ Californicated1 – I think I need to read you more often, neighbor. The points wherein I don’t totally agree with you are points where I’m not certain of either the facts and/or my own mindset regarding them. The recent stories about the plastic 3d printable guns may make all gun laws unimportant, but I still support universal background checks for all gun sales, severe punishment for straw purchasers, and mandatory reporting of guns stolen from private owners.The 3d gun video is pretty impressive.Thank you for your excellent comment California. Respectfully,C.
chazandru almost 11 years ago
Too many people playing “fast and furious” with the details on this case. It is ironic that this program began under another name before Mr. Obama was elected. It is additionally ironic the “marked guns” were purchased at gun shops in the USA that didn’t require background checks so the Justice Dept. could ‘track’ them into Mexico. The batteries showing their locations didn’t last very long or were removed. Then Mr. Obama was elected, and Mr. Holder allowed himself to be convinced the people in charge of “fast and furious” were in the middle of an ongoing investigation. The fact the leads on that investigation had lost control of the guns and their whereabouts didn’t come to light until the death of an ATF agent.One of the biggest ironies in our relationship with Mexico is that the gun US gun sellers are supplying to Mexican cartels are being bought with money US citizens spend on cocaine and marijuana and other drugs smuggled into the USA.Captialsim at work. We sell them guns, they sell us drugs, and gov’ts stand by helplessly while citizens get caught in the crossfire and go to work in corporate prisons.“Cage of Freedom/That’s Our Prison/ We’re the jailer and prisoner combined.”Instead of blaming ANYONE for this situation, would it not be better to pass laws that make this cycle of self destruction less prevalent?Respectfully,C.
midaswelby almost 11 years ago
Fast and Furious occurred because our government broke the law, and forced gun retailers to break laws. How would passing additional laws be preferable to enforcing existing law?It’s unfortunate, but most of the new laws that are being suggested won’t affect criminals at all, but they have a great deal of support anyway.
Mikaehl almost 11 years ago
@Respectful Troll
The problem with your assertion about F&F is that:
1. The people who did the buying passed a background check. A background check is required on all sales from an FFL.
2. Straw purchasers, people suspected of buying guns to smuggle out of the country, were allowed to continue by the ATF’s continued pressure on FFLs to allow it to continue. There are many FFLs who were driven out of business by the ATF for refusing to participate, invoking massive audits and ultimately being forced to lose their FFL due to it.
3. The Cartels you speak of do buy some of their weapons here in the US. However, if you do a bit of googling, you’re going to find that the cartels are supplied far greater numbers of weapons from sources in the Mexican military, and corrupt militaries across central and South America. When the issue was brought up, the line was not “majority of guns seized” coming from the US, the line was “the majority of guns seized that could be traced”.
Data on google suggests that close to 70% of the weapons being supplied come out of central and south america, and are much cheaper to buy from those sources.
Clearly F&F was a bad idea, and one neither administration should have even considered. However, the US’s firearms market is not solely, nor even the majority player, responsible for the guns used by Mexican cartels.
At least, let’s be accurate about the situation south of the border, hmm?
californicated1 almost 11 years ago
Actually, IT IS MY BUSINESS if you are my neighbor and you might pose a threat to me and my family with that weapon in your possession.…And if I find out that you are seeking such a weapon that could be lethal to me and my family, then I am going to work to keep it out of your hands, legally and when that fails, may use other means, including forceful ones to ensure you don’t get that weapon until you can tell everybody and explain why you need such a weapon in the first place.…I don’t put up with heavily armed wacko’s in my neighborhood any more than I put up with known criminals, illegal immigrants or even registered and unregistered sex offenders, because they all invite all sorts of crime, either by committing it themselves or bringing in others that will commit crime.…And perhaps that may be what we ought to do, just like registered Sex Offenders these days, put all those out there who have shown that they want and/or are seeking firearms on a registry out there so we in the community can all look at it and assess what kind of people these are.…The downside may be that all the criminals and lowlifes out there may look at the list and then decide to only attack those people not listed on it because the assumption may be that those folks aren’t armed, but that could also be just as foolish an assumption, too because firearms can be owned illegally, too.…The upside may be that if there is a lowlife that is indeed legally owning a firearm, perhaps the community might move their Law Enforcement apparatus to work on removing those weapons from that lowlife if it is proven that they are indeed a lowlife and should not be owning firearms or any other lethal weapons that could make them a danger to the community around them.…I look at this way, if you bring a firearm to an event that I sponsor, and I found out about it, I will work on having your weapon removed or just having you removed so that you don’t pose or become a threat to the safety or security of the rest of my guests.
disgustedtaxpayer almost 11 years ago
there was no program like Fast & Furious during GWs 8 years in the White House.-the Obama DOJ broke the laws of the USA to buy and sell weapons to Mexicans, some were Cartel members, crooks and criminals, and people died by the hundreds in Mexico.One US Border Patrol American was murdered.-Nothing like that happened under Bush.
chazandru almost 11 years ago
@ Harleyquinn and Ansonia – We must be getting our details from differing sources. You both seem to believe that Holder and Obama came in and got involved, to what depth? My info suggests that the new administration was focused on other issues – health care, immigration, gitmo, etc., and trusted the men from the previous administration when they said, “We’ve got everything under control.” Micro managing is not a good thing, and it was really the duty of the house oversight committee to have identified the problems with the F&F program. Did the majority Dems drop the ball while pushing other points on their agenda? That wouldn’t surpise me. Was it the administration’s fault that legislators dropped the ball? No. Time will tell if there’s more to this, but I suggest you keep your minds open.^@ Mikaehl – I have some minor nuanced disagreement with your post, but in general, you added some good points to the discussion and did so with grace and courtesy, Thank you. It was my understanding that the guns were ‘released’ through numerous methods, but since I’m not positive, I can’t argue. You are correct that weapons come north into Mexico from South America as easily, and maybe more easily, than from the USA back to Mexico. thank you for the contribution to the debate.^@ Mneedle – the ATF may have abused their power in the past however, they are still paying for that error today. If you go to the ATF website and watch the videos of them talking to gun sellers, you see people nearly begging citizens to help them enforce the laws on the books. Laws that are no longer legal requirements, but “guidelines” which sellers may choose not to follow. Undercover cops “break laws” all the time while trying to get information necessary to arrest offenders. Maybe they just smoke some pot or snort some cocaine, maybe they sell drugs or guns, but they do it with the higher goal of putting a very bad person behind bars.^@ Californicated1 – I think I need to read you more often, neighbor. The points wherein I don’t totally agree with you are points where I’m not certain of either the facts and/or my own mindset regarding them. The recent stories about the plastic 3d printable guns may make all gun laws unimportant, but I still support universal background checks for all gun sales, severe punishment for straw purchasers, and mandatory reporting of guns stolen from private owners.The 3d gun video is pretty impressive.Thank you for your excellent comment California. Respectfully,C.