For Heaven's Sake by Mike Morgan for September 13, 2010

Forgiveness is tough. Is there a line in some prayer that says we have to forgive to be forgiven?

Makes it hard when the victumn suffers from a serious crime from someone else and that someone else doesn’t get caught.

Couldn’t have said it better, old man.

Lewreader, the parable of the Unforgiving Servant (Matt 18:23-35) has a line, “So will my heavenly Father do to you [condemn you to pay back your whole debt], unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.” And the Lord’s Prayer (“Our Father”) has us say, “forgive us our debts, as we forgive those in debt to us.” So, yes–that’s the idea.

And anyone who believes they have nothing to be forgiven–well, they have better look again. And be quite sure they are right.

Did you ever hear about the fellow who went looking for the perfect monastery (or church or community or pastor…)? It seems that, after years of searching, he finally found one.

However, he soon was sad again: they refused him because he wasn’t perfect.

@Kab Buch, forgiveness does not by any means say that the crime or injury is right, or that it doesn’t hurt.

It does say that I will not let your evil define my life, or force me to act in retaliation, or make me stoop to your level. It says that I can be better than anything you can do against me.

And, in the end, it’s really only possible if God is backing it, since God can heal any injury, even a mortal one.

This Samuel agrees with the Samuel in For Heaven’s Sake; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints(with which I am affiliated) acts friendly to those who talk bad-talk on us, but hardly works the other way around.

In other words, “cannot we all just get along?”

I’ve always understood the comparison (“as”) in the Lord’s Prayer in this direction, not from us to God (“Forgive us as we have forgiven…”) but from God to us (“Forgive us as we also will forgive…”). Because I’m afraid that deep down inside of me there is still some little ancient wrong that someone did to me that I have not completely forgiven, even though I may think I have. I don’t really want God to forgive me AS I have forgiven. I want God to forgive as He forgives - fully, freely and forever. And in that spirit I want Him to inspire me to go and do the same. The warning in Matt. 18 is for the haughty, rebellious spirit who stubbornly refuses to forgive, even though God has forgiven him. And there - because I have my sinful flesh until I die - there but for the grace of God go I. God, have mercy on me a sinner.

didn’t say anything about spammers

This church ain’t big enough for the both of us! Pistols at dawn!

Forgiving someone and meaning it is really hard sometimes. Can we be forgiven for not forgiving? Hmm…. probably not. (Blows Raspberry)

Actually, LuvH8, it helps to consider how much we have been forgiven by others–and then it’s not so hard to forgive what we have received.

In the parable of the Unforgiving Servant, (Matt 18:23-35) I sometimes like to rewrite it as a student with $100,000,000 in student loans–when she asks for a few months to come up with the cash, the banker writes it off. She then sees a fellow student who owes her $2000, and demands it immediately.

I get those figures from a rough estimate of the weights mentioned and the cost of silver–and it’s likely on the right order of magnitude.

If we try to forgive, and ask God for help in forgiving, I think God will give us the benefit of the doubt–as long as we keep trying, and let God help us. And God will bring us to forgive in the end.

I keep thinking I am ready to forgive certain things and then it just seems to come back. But I think I am getting closer, now if certain people would quit doing more things…………

Oh, are we still in trouble if someone dies and they have things they haven’t forgiven us for?

(Doomed! Doomed I Tell You!)

Oh, that story is close to home right now, would it be evil of me to suggest it to someone who is more religious than I and doing the same thing as the student? (it is over money) Oh, and I do realize the story is about more than money.

“If we try to forgive, and ask God for help in forgiving, I think God will give us the benefit of the doubt–as long as we keep trying, and let God help us. And God will bring us to forgive in the end. ”

Sounds like that god grades on the curve. Doesn’t seem like the God in 1 John 1:5-2:1. That God dealt in absolutes - either light or dark - no shadow or shade or gray. I would love to see a verse where “God will give us the benefit of the doubt.”

I think our forgiveness in the end comes from these sort of verses: Job 5:17 “Therefore, blessed is the man whom God corrects, so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty. Pro 3:11 My child, do not despise discipline from the Lord, and do not loathe his rebuke. 1Co 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned with the world. Rev 3:19 All those I love, I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent! Heb 12:6 “For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son he accepts.”

Notice in Hebrews it is all God’s actions - He disciplines, He loves, He chastises and He accepts - not our action.

I appreciate all your posts of hope. I pray that God is much more forgiving than me. That line in the Lord’s Prayer has always scared me. If I can forgive I get immediate psychological and spiritual gain. If I still feel someone should be boiled in oil, keel hauled, then shot at dawn. it is obviously bothering me, not him. Can a human give 100% forgiveness or is that reserved for him. I do fear a Divine judgement on my inability to wholly forgive. As in all His teachings. I hope He doesn’t expect me to achieve perfection, just strive for it.

Somewhere in the new testament I think it says there has been only one perfect man. The rest of us do the best we can with the guidance given.

Lewreader - very astute. The first relationship has to be vertical before the horizontal (interpersonal). That was my point - with out the vertical relationship, we cannot even approach the concept of forgiveness with others and yet it is a command we do so. For those that are God’s, the forgiveness is easily obtained and always permanent from His view. 1 John chapter 1:9 was put there for our use in maintaining OUR relationship back to him “If we confess OUR sins He is faithful and just to FORGIVE US and cleanse us from all unrighteousness”. This is put there for believers and the confession is to God - making agreement about the sinful act. So what if I don’t remember all the sins I commit in a day,a week or a month - well that is what comes under the category of “all unrighteousness”. You cannot achieve perfection until after death when the ability to sin is eradicated.

Another way to put that, Phil, is to point out that, without God forgiving us first, we are in the position of paying off that $100 million: it’s not possible. But once God lifts that burden (the vertical relationship), then the horizontal forgiveness becomes possible.

Confuzzling, simply confuzzling. Probably just me though.

We must forgive those who have wounded us. Until we do, we keep knocking the scab off our wound and it will never heal. You will know you have forgiven someone when you see them and no longer have an emotional reaction. (Unknown)

bmonk - Only problem is that when He forgives us by means of faith that He gives us (Ephesians 2:8 & 9) we have no burden to pay off - Christ paid it all (1 John 2:2) - we are debt free - not of works lest any man should boast.

LuvH8 - forgiveness is a one time act vertically and horizontally. If I forgive another, whether they accept it or not it is done. My job at that point is to move on and not play with it any more - if I do, then that is sin.

@Phil–true, we have no burden left to pay. However, that still doesn’t stop many from trying–perhaps that was the motive for the unforgiving servant to shake down his fellow servant: he was trying to scrape together enough to pay off the (forgiven) debt?

And then there is the work of the kingdom–not repayment of our sin, but working with God to repair the world–kind of like a two-year-old helping Mom or Dad clean the house: they help, but Mom (Dad) still does virtually all the work.

Phil N. DeBlanc - yes, if we forgive someone it is only once. But sometimes it is difficult to forgive that first time, and it is not always prudent to tell someone they are forgiven.

The turn the other cheek and give them your coat thingy? Does that mean we are just supposed to accept it when someone does wrong and then thank or reward the other person for doing the wrong?

If we are thanking others for doing wrong, why should forgiveness even be an issue? They apparently did something good.

@LuvH8, that section is hard to understand. It’s the most radical of the whole Bible, in many people’s mind.

I think it has to be seen in light of the Cross: Jesus accepted their judgment and execution without objecting, except in matters of fact. He allowed them to do as they willed, because he was fully obedient to the Father’s will. And their judgment was proved faulty when God did not allow him to be cursed (by dying on a tree, Deuteronomy 21:23) but raised him, not just back to life, but to glory, to eternal life.

It is only when we are in touch with God, who stands behind us with life and final mercy and justice, that we can forgive others their debts, turn the other cheek, and even thank them for doing us wrong–because we trust that God will give us even more than we lost through this injustice.

I am not sure what to say about that. It would seem straightfoward…… but…. we don’t actually have to thank people who would be mean because we thanked them, do we?

Well, remember that it’s for relatively “advanced” disciples. And, often, we need God to guide us through these sort of trials. He is willing to keep nudging and reminding us until we take the step we need to take.

And remember–God writes straight with crooked lines (our lives). That is, God can bring good out of things that are evil themselves. For example, someone’s injury of us through sin may move us to get out of their lives, and find out that we can survive without them. Their sin is not made right–but it helped us grow. So, we could thank them, even for doing us wrong.

Like in Christina Aguilera’s “Stronger” (aka “Fighter”).

Luv you Bunnyface

I think it will also help when I learn to forgive me. I think most of the things I have the hardest time with are the ones where I think I should have done something different. (whether or not it is true)

That’s also very true: it can be easier to practice on others to get ready to work on ourselves–but eventually we must do the hard work of opening up our own wounds to be healed.

It doesn’t seem like it should be as hard as it is.