Tom the Dancing Bug by Ruben Bolling for September 17, 2010

JimJammer, perhaps if you were to actually read some of Hawking’s work, especially that on gravity, you wouldn’t think it nonsense.

No, I take that back. You probably still would.

A brief summary of the exchange a relative and I had after I was in the hospital:

Relative: “As far as I’m concerned, it’s a miracle you’re okay.”

Me: “But what about all the doctors and nurses who worked-”

Relative: “MIR-A-CLE.”

..I am not sure,but I don’t think Hawking exactly ‘believes’ the universe was ‘created’

I have nothing to add to this, but I believe I share Bolling’s frustration with this…

Of course, we now need to know who or what created God-Man …

^

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: “What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.”

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, “What is the tortoise standing on?”

“You’re very clever, young man, very clever,” said the old lady. “But it’s turtles all the way down!”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtlesallthewaydown

Old book. Gotta read the latest for the latest.

Regarding faith, one does not accept science on “faith”. One picks the most likely conclusions from the evidence. New evidence comes up – new conclusions.

Big bang, or turtles all the way down?

Reminds me of an old joke: This guy keeps praying to God to help him win the lottery. After hearing many a fervent appeal, God finally replies with vexation: “It would help if you actually bought a ticket!”

As one philosopher put it, faith is an icepick to the brain.

“Even he has to have faith that what he has arrived at, in regards to his belief that the universe was created from “nothing”, takes faith because it is an unprovable point. Which is the way it will remain, because one of the main purposes of this earth life is to live by faith.”

Cheap cop-out. A self-serving rationalization to congratulate yourself on your inability and/or refusal to indulge in critical thinking. God-Man gave us brains and senses, and expects us to disregard them and rely on faith instead?

Sure, he that made us with such large discourse, Looking before and after, gave us not That capability and god-like reason To fust in us unused.

There are limits to what is known at this point, but there are theories. Perhaps some of these theories will never be testable, because of our lack of sufficient instruments and laboratory environments (we may never really know what occurs beyond the event horizon of a Black Hole, because by their nature that’s impossible to observe at this point). But who knows what we may be able to learn 100 years from now? 500 years?

“Faith” is fighting a desperate rear-guard campaign against the advances of science, both in theory and practice, and every new development, even as it raises new questions, sets the answers to the old ones farther and farther away from God-Man.

“Faith is a crock”?! - this says much more about you and your sense of optimism than it does about the world. To me, even Hawking’s idea, if it begins to appear to be correct, still does not clobber God, because my concept of God is all about possibilities - the necessarily infinite variety of life, which must change constantly. So if we are saying the universe was born because it was possible, than where is the problem? Life evolved because it was possible? Again, where is the conflict? In the Bible there are countless stories of people finding God, then drifting away, then finding him again - in these stories the point is generally tht God makes it possible always for people to grow and have better lives. He explains how to do it, through showing and practicing love to each other. I mean, I love science, and yes it is true that in a literal reading many things in the Bible are improbable at best. But if read in the correct way, as part history, part guidance, part human experience and whatever else, the whole thing is just so rich and coherent and deep - it seems filled with Truth to me. No scientific discovery can change the way I feel about that. That is my faith - no problem with science - after all, to believe in science is to believe in many things we cannot see or experience directly, correct? An act of faith.

Human nature tends to worship the created and not the creater. In my 81 years I have been privileged to witness several “Miracles.” This is my wife’s story: My mother had cancer surgery in 1954. In 1956 she fell and broke her hip. Six months later she was back home and her life routine again became normal. That was until 1960 when she had a major heart attach. It should have been fatal, but it wasn’t. She was a survivalist, but she could no longer live at home by herself. After a lengthy hospital stay she moved in with our family in Evansville, Indiana. This made a family of five which included my husband and two young daughters.

Now, however, she was a semi-invalid. She was subject to mood swings due to minor strokes , and limited mobility. This made raising a family of my own doubly hard. Understand, I have no regrets, but my nerves were often stressed what with leading a brownie troop and running to music lessons with my daughters.

My mother lived with us for thirteen years, and as the time went by she became more and more depressed. Then on a cold January 2nd in 1974 she was making up her bed when she fell. Her second hip broke and in the fall the pin in her other hip gave way. She was rushed to the Deaconess Hospital emergency room. This was even doubly more serious because of her heart condition and that the doctor treating her had said previously that he had done all he could do for her.

While she was being x-rayed, I walked a short distance down the hall to a Chapel to pray. On the alter a Bible was open to a psalm. The psalm said exactly what I needed. Then I prayed, “Lord, please take my mother home. She is so tired and I have heard her pray so often that she is ready. If she lives she will be totally bedfast since her heart won’t withstand another operation. I have done the best I could, but I just can’t do any more.”

With that said, a arm was put around my shoulder, and a voice said, “Don’t worry anymore, she is no longer your responsibility, she’s my responsibility now.” I was alone in the Chapel, or was I? Oh, that psalm I read, I have yet to find it again, even after looking in several versions of the Bible. I will always believe it was Jesus Christ that comforted me that day, and when ever I think about it I can feel His arm around me.

My wife is no radical anything..She is as down to earth as you will find. Yet, this happened. No God? Hah - don’t believe it.

Don’t believe it? Contact me at setapart@psci.net

keechum - I hate to burst your bubble, but your story doesn’t prove the existence of God. Maybe it does to you, but not to anyone else. It may make you feel better, but that’s about it.

The Bible ages the earth to 6,000 years old, and that has been debunked for a long long time. Anyone who believes the earth is that old needs to be confined, for they are not able to think rationally. There’s no evidence outside the Bible that Jesus ever existed, although there are multiple references to other important figures of that time period.

There’s no such thing as God. Jesus never existed. Those are the facts. That is final. This is all.

Great cartoon!

“There’s no such thing as God. Jesus never existed. Those are the facts. That is final. This is all.” - ha what a laugh. Why are atheists always so sure about everything? Not to mention rude. You speak, like so many, as someone who has never really looked at the Bible, or given fair voice to all the possibilities of life, and for that I am sorry. An open mind is the best way to live.

Also, thanks Keecham, for sharing your story. Something of a similar nature happened to me once. Kind of sealed the deal for me I guess.

Great! Another “God-Man” for my collection. Thanks, Ruben.

Tommy, don’t even begin to call atheists “rude”.

The fact that you chide them for not looking at your bible, but ignore all other religions, speaks volumes about “rude”.

Tell us more about your “open mind”.

Big bang, or turtles all the way down?

There was a time in my life when I seemed to be making close associations with a lot of Virgos, both male and female. In the house where I was living in San Francisco, at work, in my social life, if I knew somebody’s birthday there was about a 50% chance that it was between August 23 and September 23.

One weekend about 18 years ago, not only were significant turns being taken in my dealings with key Virgos in San Francisco, but two old friends from my hometown turned up (separately) on my doorstep. Both were Virgos (still are, actually), and although both were good friends (one still is) I wasn’t really looking forward to having to deal with out-of-town guests just then.

As I was walking home from the bus stop, thinking about all of these Virgos piling up, I ran into a woman that I had been friendly with at work some years before, but who had long since left the job and I hadn’t seen her since. We started chatting and catching up, when it occurred to me to ask “When’s your birthday?” I no longer remember the exact date but sure enough she was a Virgo. As I left and continued homeward, all I could make of it was “It figures.”

I refer to that weekend as “the Virgonic Convergence.” Don’t believe that it happened? I assure you it did. What, if anything, did it MEAN? I’ve never had a frickin’ clue. If it WAS a “sign” of some sort, whoever was sending it failed in communicating any Message…

I’ve known people who have had “transformative religious experiences.” I believe that they believe that what they believe happened to them happened. But never having had one myself, their stories of what they felt and how it changed them are entirely lost on me. It’s not transmissable information. Science is transmissable. Experimental results are expected to be repeatable, theories are expected to be explainable. Where there are no directly observable phenomena that can be shared, nonetheless theories are rigorously examined against not only seemingly-contradictive evidence, but against other theories. Sometimes, yeah, new evidence will be found and theories need to be revised. But by design the scientific method is self-correcting and cumulative. The rigor required for Faith is the rigor to maintain your position despite any theories to the contrary, and even despite overwhelming evidence against it.

@ keechum

I like your story. All too often we get stories about how God miraculously saves somebody’s life, but you give a story about how God miraculously kills somebody. It’s a good contrast.

It’s still a story where God does something kind, however. We need more stories where God does something cruel. Don’t get me wrong; I’m glad that God did something kind in your story. I don’t want you or your family to suffer! Still, it’s a fact that people do suffer, often for no discernible reason. I wish that people blamed this on God as much as they credit him with good things.

In your story, your wife’s mother fell and broke her hip. This reminds me of how my mother’s mother died; she was found dead on the floor of her kitchen with no other apparent damage except injuries (including a broken hip) that were attributed to a fall. Although she had been old and weak, she had never had any trouble with balance before; certainly she’d never fallen in the middle of the kitchen before. There was nothing around her (no heavy objects that she’d been carrying, no obstacles on the floor that might have tripped her, etc) to suggest why she would fall then. So why did she fall?

This isn’t a dramatic story, and the answer seems obvious: no particular reason, she was just unlucky that time. As the Preacher said, ‘time and chance happeneth to [us] all’. That’s one explanation. But maybe it was a miracle; maybe God killed her. I didn’t get any secret messages from him, so we may never know for sure.

By the way, whenever this topic comes up, I like to remind people that, while God heals many diseases, for some reason he hates amputees. It’s just one of those things, like garments woven of mixed linen and wool.

it’s not rude to ask a simple question:

if God-man created the universe, who created God-man?

Never had any moments of Jesus speaking to me. Most of what I’ve read in the Bible is kind of crazy and irrational (Leviticus anyone?), and many of the laws laid down aren’t followed by anyone anymore (anyone sacrifice birds for wearing cotton-wool blend suits?)

But I have had some moments. Flashiest was during an accident while camping. 400 miles from the nearest town, things going fubar in the fast lane and all of a sudden a helicopter happens to fly overhead. Apparently he was out doing survey work for a mining company. The odds still seem quite a stretch for me.

The quieter moments were while hitch-hiking across country. Nothing like hitching to drag you down; it’s a lonely stretch. Both times when I just gave up and plopped down on the side of the road, something amazing came around the corner in an hour or so. Maybe not spectacularly improbable, but I remember the lift to my spirit.

But like any rational person, I have to ask “Why me?” Why did I get a helicopter and 100,000 people in Indonesia get a tsunami? If God is omniscient and omnipotent, why does profoundly evil $h1t happen to random people? Why do people do profoundly evil $h1t in God’s name and get away with it?

Strident atheism takes as much faith as fundamentalism.

I’m a devout agnostic who’s denominationally antagonistic.

Did God create Man, or did Man create God? Given the balance of evidence, the latter seems far more likely.

Donaldo’s question reminds me of this typical exchange:

Fundie: The universe must have been created by God; nothing can have been around forever.

Atheist: So who created God?

Fundie: God wasn’t created; He’s been around forever.

Hey, don’t be so quick to knock Revelations. It contains one of my favorite bible verses…the one that says all liars go to hell.

Which includes just about everyone.

I think the cartoon is funny, but not as funny as some of the arguments that I’m reading here.

Way to go Ruben, now you’ve got everybody all upset!

Ha ha I love this cartoon! I can totally hear Hawking’s voice synthesizer saying ‘simple can of tuna’!!

However, this comic still can’t hold a candle to the comment section! Right on, yo!

I’m a Virgo, by the way. If that matters.

At least I don’t have to type in ALL CAPS TO MAKE MY POINT!!! Your point of view is WRONG!!! WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! I BELIEVE IT AND THAT SETTLES IT!!!

Quality argument, eh?

If you are telling me that the collected writings and lifetimes of thought and debate and discussion on matters of theology, as well as the Bible itself, are all just a waste of time, while your opinion, concocted and explained in your little lifetime, is somehow of greater value, then I think that is an argument for my side. Which I really don’t think you know what my side is anyway. If you knew me as a person you would know that I am an open minded person, I just don’t respect closed minds or ALL CAPS!!!!

I will ask Richard Dawkins for an opinion of this comic the next time I see him. Trolls stay quiet.

If you made fun of the Old Testament God, you got boils, lightning bolts, and your goats died.

Since we can now make fun of Mr. God & nothing happens, it’s pretty good evidence he doesn’t exist. Proof is in the pudding.

@Tommy1733

I’d like to address you claim that “If you are telling me that the collected writings and lifetimes of thought and debate and discussion on matters of theology, as well as the Bible itself, are all just a waste of time, while your opinion, concocted and explained in your little lifetime, is somehow of greater value, then I think that is an argument for my side.”

People have been, and continue to be wrong about things that have been believed for thousands of years. Consider that the germ theory of disease has only gained overwhelming scientific acceptance in roughly the last 150 years. Or, to put it in a moral context, slavery and racism have always been wrong even though this is a more modern way of thinking, and the civil rights act in the US has only made this legally so within the lifetime of many still alive today. There are also occasional new ideas that come along just by the brilliance of one individual which modify, destroy, or revolutionize old ideas like special relativity.

Just because a belief is popular or longstanding does not make it true.

Also, given your line of argument, can you really say that you have examined the truth claims of every other religion in an exhaustive way? Hinduism has been around much longer than Christianity with a correspondingly large amount of study having gone into it. Are you really qualified to reject this religion as false given your “little lifetime?”

@hotLunch - thanks for your comments. I can’t argue your point that popularity does not make an idea true. I guess to me I find a lot of “true”-seeming wisdom when I read the right Bible passage at the right time - it seems to resonate for me and I must say since I became spiritual (I was raised an atheist) a few years ago I just love to ponder and wonder about God or whatever He/She/It might be. I kind of think the word “God” is perhaps not the best word to use, because it carries a lot of implications with it. If there is one thing we should have gotten from ongoing science exploration, it is that God does not exist in the way that people appear to have thought He did - it used to be unquestioned that He created every species, then Evolution showed us how this all happened and to me this does not remove God from the picture but it does require that we must reconsider. I love thinking about this kind of stuff - it is endlessly fascinating and I don’t expect to ever find final answer - the journey is the fun part. And I think it is all subjective - what works for me is because of the sum of my experiences and my nature - every single living thing must be necessity have its own viewpoint, so I don’t expect that anyone else can fully share mine.

But I do hate to see people just cut down all religious ideas so easily - I think that to really come to any conclusion you should do a lot of study of the sources and keep an open mind. Then, if you still don’t buy it, fine - just don’t bleeep at me for disagreeing with you and don’t forget to qualify your rejections with “I believe this is the case” not “You religious people are all wring” - that is self-righteousness. Not directing that at you personally, y’unnastan’.

As to your second question - certainly I have tried to learn a bit about other religions but I am no expert on them. I am a Christian because that is what resonates with me - my culture, etc. People have to be immersed in their own culture, and then they are more likely to buy into that culture’s interpretation. I just kind of assume all religions have something in common and maybe they are just different cultures’ ways of interpreting all these mysteries. Too bad we have to fight each other all the bleeep time about it though.

aircraft-engineer - what you are TRYING to do is get me to CLOSE my mind.

There are no arguments that I know of that conclusively PROVE the existence of a God or the non-existence of a God. I believe we are locked in a situation where we each must make up our own mind, choosing to listen to different ideas and deciding which ones suit ourselves.

Why should I take your word over Jesus? Your argument is shallow and in a short-sighted way, obvious, while his was deep, rich, and also obvious, but on a far deeper level. I would appreciate it if you would STOP trying to get me to change my mind, starting NOW. It is only arrogance that leads you to attempt such a thing. Change your own mind - leave me the hell alone.

I can rationally believe in Big Bang.

Where did the stuff come from that went bang?

Perchance to dream. Ah there is the rub.

“It is only arrogance that leads you to attempt such a thing.”

I’ve often said that about evangelists and missionaries. Gotta have a huge ego to be one of those, even greater than the ego of the typical christian who thinks the entire universe, with billions of galaxies, was created just for him.

Tommy offers only the weakest of all arguments for his god: that it cannot be disproved.

Tommy, I claim that your god is nothing more than a myth, and in fact there’s a giant invisible space aardvark orbiting our planet, and that this divine aardvark created the universe, our planet, and us, and to this day controls our daily lives. And this aardvark has offered wisdom that is deep, rich, and of a deeper level than your misunderstanding of god.

Since you can’t disprove this divine aardvark, he must exist.

And the ultimate indicator of how weak your beliefs are: “I would appreciate it if you would STOP trying to get me to change my mind, starting NOW.”

Why so scared, Tommy?

Anthony, why does my belief in what I choose upset you? Can’t you just leave it alone? The arrogance is that you seem to be making it your mission to convert me.

Once again - “I would appreciate it if you would STOP trying to get me to change my mind, starting NOW.”

I’m not upset, Tommy. Just curious why you’re so scared to examine or be questioned about your beliefs.

And I’m certainly not trying to convert you. It’s obvious you need those beliefs in order to cope with life.

Perhaps if you don’t want your beliefs questioned it would be better not to post them on a public forum? Just keep them to yourself? I realize, of course, that keeping your beliefs to yourself is not the christian way, but in your case it might be the best course.

Anthony - In 3 short paragraphs you provided several provocations, assumptions, outright insults, and one lie. I have done none of those things.

And no substance. Thanks for letting me win so easily. Shall I send you some church literature?

http://www.fishingforsouls.com/home.html

Just because you have a broken leg doesn’t mean I need a crutch, Tommy.

What is it you think you’ve won? You post your evangelistic witnessing, get challenged on it, and run away. That’s winning?

Two paragraphs: insults, assumptions, taunting. I have not seen any challenges yet - just some weak rhetorical technique. Please tell me something interesting or challenging if you can. Haven’t seen anything even remotely like that from you or aircraft engineer. Just insults, taunts, assumptions. Break the mold, dude, and give me a reason to think.

Also, please let me know why my beliefs upset you?

I’m not upset, Tommy. Just curious why you’re so scared to examine or be questioned about your beliefs.

And I’m certainly not trying to convert you. It’s obvious you need those beliefs in order to cope with life.

Perhaps if you don’t want your beliefs questioned it would be better not to post them on a public forum? Just keep them to yourself? I realize, of course, that keeping your beliefs to yourself is not the christian way, but in your case it might be the best course.

Just because you have a broken leg doesn’t mean I need a crutch, Tommy.

What is it you think you’ve won? You post your evangelistic witnessing, get challenged on it, and run away. That’s winning?

(I’m repeating these comments simply because you haven’t responded to any of them. It seems that running away with your tail between your legs is an integral part of being a fundie christian.)

“I’m not upset, Tommy.” - you sounds upset to me. “Just curious why you’re so scared to examine or be questioned about your beliefs.” - not true - I question and examine them all the time. I really enjoy discussing theology - just like I enjoy learning about new scientific discoveries. I enjoy when science discovers something new that makes me rethink. I believe that is part of being spiritual - you must keep an open mind and not cling to dogma. “And I’m certainly not trying to convert you” - well, again, seems like you are not really open to my beliefs, but then I think yours are so far as I know nothing but arrogant blather. “It’s obvious you need those beliefs in order to cope with life.” - an insult and an assumption. “Perhaps if you don’t want your beliefs questioned it would be better not to post them on a public forum? Just keep them to yourself? I realize, of course, that keeping your beliefs to yourself is not the christian way, but in your case it might be the best course.” - insults and assumptions. “Just because you have a broken leg doesn’t mean I need a crutch, Tommy.” - if you are taking the metaphor that I feel like I need God, you are right on the money there. “It seems that running away with your tail between your legs is an integral part of being a fundie christian.” - WTF? insult, assumption. I don’t consider myself a fundamentalist Christian in any sense of how it is currently understood.

This is getting pretty ridiculous don’t you think? Is anybody but you and me still reading this dang forum anyway? I will add no more comments to this thread, but I might check to see if you respond. I really don’t wish you ill will, but you seem quite locked into a belief set that you have not yet adequately defended. Your rhetoric is all insults and assumptions - no way to listen to other people. Bye.

Tommy, your earlier comments were the opposite of “I really enjoy discussing theology”.

But I accept your clarification, and ask that you accept the fact that I’m not upset. :)