Nomad, that’s exactly Wilson did. In his own words “Now, I did wrong. I should not have spoken up, but what he (Obama) said was not correct.”
Gorrell seems to either not understand, or willfully ignore that the problem was where, when and how it was said, not what was said. That is what the House wants an apology for.
I seen the disrespectful actions of the Dems during some Bush speeches…Given that and other Lib hypocrisy (Wrangel the thief), I think the dems ARE liars and unable to comply with so-called “civil- discourse” themselves.
It’s nice to know so many voters have no idea how Congress even works. You can put CSPAN on every cable system in the country, but you can’t make people think. Do these folks think there’s no difference between raising their hand and asking a question in class or simply screaming at the teacher? Do they think there’s no difference between having a heated religious debate in the church basement and shouting at the minister during services? And I’m not going to ask how these idiots act during movies ….
pup and nomad, the difference is that what Joe Wilson representative said, was wrong. That is the problem. It is not the outburst, but the perpetuation of ignorance that is so repugnant.
What Joe Wilson said was factually correct. Knowing he was correct, the dems amended the bill to make what BHO said true. However, I’m of the opinion that illegals will continue to get free healthcare.
Anyone who presents themselves to the emergency room will get care – and if they have no money, it’ll be paid by the rest of us. Think that’s ever going to change?
From my perspective, let the illegals buy insurance so they don’t cost me any more money. After all, if I understand church correctly, they get in on fake IDs (which means the employers can’t be held responsible for hiring them), so insurance companies can’t be held responsible for insuring them.
GNWachs, you left out answer E - None of the above.
On the ‘unprecedented point - you are mistaken. Rep Wilson made a direct accusation - “You Lie”. This goes well beyond the expressions of disapproval at Bush’s 2005 State of the Union address - or similar outbursts by Republicans at President Clinton’s SOTU address in ‘93, ‘95, 97, and 98. In none of those cases did a member of Congress directly accuse a president of lying. So once again we see Republicans setting new standards for boorish behavior AND ignoring the facts.
Gbrucewilson, the bill SPECIFICALLY excludes illegal immigrants. How is that lying?
What Wilson did was imply, “We know them thar’ WMDs are in Iraq and we just need more time to find them!” He’s also in the camp with Custer on “advanced tactics”. The simple fact is that there is a lot of apology needed from BOTH sides in Congress, but especially those who promote childish stupidity in the streets, while deplorably ignoring their duty to find solutions, instead of BEING the problem.
I will assume you are actually trying to have a discussion rather than a snark.
The law of the land today specifically doesn’t cover illegal aliens. BUT, when someone comes to a doctor or hospital for treatment it is illegal to ask for proof of citizenship. Therefore millions of illegal aliens get free care at the cost of billions.
Obama basically said we will continue the current program that illegal aliens will not be covered. He knew that since no questions could be asked what he was saying in practice was not true. That is when Wilson shouted “lie”.
Why because the proposed health care bill did NOT change the requirement that no questions re citizenship could be asked. Therefore just like today in the future millions of illegal aliens would be treated for free. Obama is brilliant and knew that.
After the uproar, on Wednesday, a new clause in the new proposed health care bill was added on Friday. Now we could ask for proof of citizenship. That new clause changes everything. Wilson got accomplished what he wanted.
GNW, serious question. If I understand you correctly, the current system does not allow the hospital (or doctor, I suppose), to ask for proof of citizenship. Correct?
But what I don’t understand is, how is that the same as insuring the illegals? Obama said his plan will not insure them (by the way, that’s future tense, so it hasn’t happened yet, so cannot be a lie yet). Obama said they will not be covered by the plan. Presumably they will (and ALL people who choose that option) be required to prove legal status in order to get the insurance.
That is different from a hospital or doctor not being able to ask for proof of citizenship. One is on the insurance end, the other is at the medical service end. Whether or not there is a public option – or any health care reform at all – hospitals and doctors will continue to treat insured and uninsured alike. If they are required to seek proof of citizenship at the hospital, well, that’s a different issue altogether and should be dealt with in a different bill.
Now, are you – or is the Republican Party – suggesting that every patient must provide proof of citizenship before they can receive care (at least the firs time they present themselves)? Would doctors and hospitals be required to get that proof (and presumably file it)? What would the administrative costs be in that? Would it be an unfunded mandate? What would happen if someone were brought in under emergency conditions and could not present any ID?
I’m not trying to be cute here. The entire issue seems much more complicated than commenters here have presented it. But unless I can see where the president’s plan (which is not necessary what the House or Senate had discussed) has a provision that says illegals can receive government insurance, I’m just not seeing how he lied.
Howie, it’s amazing that we keep going over the same ground on this issue. Bush was booed, Clinton was booed. Booing is bipartisan and has happened in the past when Presidents speak to a joint session of Congress.
Yelling “you lie” or “you liar” in an outburst during a presidential speech to a joint session of Congress is unprecedented in modern history. (I’ve read where some believe he said ‘you liar” but, as parker pointed out elsewhere, with the southern accent it could be hard to distinguish).
It does no good for you and others to continue to claim that Democrats have done the same in the past, because it is simply factually inaccurate. Stop with the nonsense. Yelling “you lie” does not equal booing.
plain bill & cdward good posts both of you. Maintaining the status quo re treatment of illegals in ERs is just that — no change. It is not the same as enrolling illegals in a public option plan, if there is to be one. When immigration reform does come up in Congress, their role or lack of role in a health insurance can be debated and determined at that time. I think you and I have agreed in past posts that to attempt any type of changing illegal immigration laws in the healthcare bill will only ensure its defeat.
This is my personal opinion, nothing I read anywhere. I think as a humane society we must offer treatment to each and every person, American or not. I also think we must make a policy decision as to the future of illegal aliens. Citizenship or not? If we offer them insurance the next step, with no way of stopping it, is they will become citizens.
But I want honesty from my President. I want him to say under his plan, illegal aliens will continue to get free medical care because that is what a just society offers. He is implying, to get votes, that will not be true.
GNW, thank you for your response. I agree illegals will probably continue to get care. I did not, however hear the implication that you did in his speech. For the moment, it seems fair to say that insurance will not be available to illegals while care will be.
Howie , wrote: Yes BCS it is amazing how you can deny Democrats were not rude during Bush years.
BCS wrote: Bush was booed, Clinton was booed. Booing is bipartisan and has happened in the past when Presidents speak to a joint session of Congress.
doesn’t sound like a denial to me, Howie.
And Maureen Dowd and former Pres. Carter aren’t elected representatives seated on the floor of the House yelling at a President in the middle of his speech. And I guarantee you there are people across the political spectrum who do not like nor appreciate Dowd’s column and Carter’s remarks.
GNW: I didn’t say “elected officials” across the political spectrum, I said people. That means me, friends and family that have discussed it. I’m not paying that much attention to what folks are saying about Carter’s remarks in the media. He’s a former president, he can say what he wants, but I don’t think it’s helping.
(added later) I think Carter may have felt he had an obligation to speak up
How does it make sense to not allow illegals to buy into the public option?
How do you practically allow for challenges to people’s citizenship in an emergency? How do you say, well you didn’t bring your passport, with you when you had this heart attack, so please go back and get that before we treat you? Who will be challenged the most, people with dark skin. Come on.
Therefore since you can’t limit emergency care, if you don’t allow them to buy insurance they are more likely to go to an emergency room as eventually care will be needed. Since they aren’t allowed to pay into a system, they can only take out, which will only increase costs.
^ cjkinsey, this is my opinion. A healthcare reform bill cannot attempt to solve immigration reform or tort reform. Doing so would ensure nothing at all gets passed. Thus, I believe the healthcare reform bill should leave things as is (hospitals treat in ERs, and contrary to popular belief, they do receive compensation from the fed govt, they don’t have to “eat” the entire cost).
For me, it’s not a question of fiscal responsibility, it’s a question of limiting this bill to healthcare reform. Obama has stated immigration reform will come later, and I’m sure it will. What that will end up being, no one knows.
Same for tort reform. i think these two issues are a Republican ploy to get their agenda passed through the back door because they know Obama and Dems really want healthcare reform.
Unfortunately, that works on Capitol Hill all the time. In CA, they passed legislation that stops the practice of adding last minute amendments that are not germane to the topic of the bill, and they have made some attempt to limit bills to single topics. Legislation that passes and contains provisions unrelated to topic generally aren’t good legislating, they’re attempts to win votes one by one by giving “bennies” to single individuals.
Doreen Rice Premium Member almost 15 years ago
He broke the rules of the House of Representatives. It has nothing to do with who called whom what.
nomad2112 almost 15 years ago
Then he should apologize for breaking the rule and not for what he said.
Chrisnp almost 15 years ago
Nomad, that’s exactly Wilson did. In his own words “Now, I did wrong. I should not have spoken up, but what he (Obama) said was not correct.”
Gorrell seems to either not understand, or willfully ignore that the problem was where, when and how it was said, not what was said. That is what the House wants an apology for.
ransomdstone almost 15 years ago
Who let this inmate out of the looney bin?
believecommonsense almost 15 years ago
I agree … the setting of that outburst was unprecedented in modern history …
NoFearPup almost 15 years ago
I seen the disrespectful actions of the Dems during some Bush speeches…Given that and other Lib hypocrisy (Wrangel the thief), I think the dems ARE liars and unable to comply with so-called “civil- discourse” themselves.
Michael Peterson Premium Member almost 15 years ago
It’s nice to know so many voters have no idea how Congress even works. You can put CSPAN on every cable system in the country, but you can’t make people think. Do these folks think there’s no difference between raising their hand and asking a question in class or simply screaming at the teacher? Do they think there’s no difference between having a heated religious debate in the church basement and shouting at the minister during services? And I’m not going to ask how these idiots act during movies ….
cjkinsey almost 15 years ago
pup and nomad, the difference is that what Joe Wilson representative said, was wrong. That is the problem. It is not the outburst, but the perpetuation of ignorance that is so repugnant.
gbrucewilson almost 15 years ago
What Joe Wilson said was factually correct. Knowing he was correct, the dems amended the bill to make what BHO said true. However, I’m of the opinion that illegals will continue to get free healthcare.
cdward almost 15 years ago
Anyone who presents themselves to the emergency room will get care – and if they have no money, it’ll be paid by the rest of us. Think that’s ever going to change?
From my perspective, let the illegals buy insurance so they don’t cost me any more money. After all, if I understand church correctly, they get in on fake IDs (which means the employers can’t be held responsible for hiring them), so insurance companies can’t be held responsible for insuring them.
GNWachs almost 15 years ago
No what Joe Wilson did was
(a) deflect from the perfectly planned speech and subsequent planned mass migration of the American public to support ObamaCare
(b) point out areas that the emperor has no clothes that his advocates were trying to conceal
(c) broke the magic spell being cast on the great unwashed
(d) not exactly unprecedented http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBxmEGG71PM
PlainBill almost 15 years ago
GNWachs, you left out answer E - None of the above.
On the ‘unprecedented point - you are mistaken. Rep Wilson made a direct accusation - “You Lie”. This goes well beyond the expressions of disapproval at Bush’s 2005 State of the Union address - or similar outbursts by Republicans at President Clinton’s SOTU address in ‘93, ‘95, 97, and 98. In none of those cases did a member of Congress directly accuse a president of lying. So once again we see Republicans setting new standards for boorish behavior AND ignoring the facts.
Gbrucewilson, the bill SPECIFICALLY excludes illegal immigrants. How is that lying?
parkersinthehouse almost 15 years ago
oh bob. fauxp’d again.
petergrt almost 15 years ago
“So once again we see Republicans setting new standards for boorish behavior AND ignoring the facts.”
It has been widely reported that the thousands of protesters in DC a few days ago were primarily Republicans. Not a single arrest.
Dtroutma almost 15 years ago
What Wilson did was imply, “We know them thar’ WMDs are in Iraq and we just need more time to find them!” He’s also in the camp with Custer on “advanced tactics”. The simple fact is that there is a lot of apology needed from BOTH sides in Congress, but especially those who promote childish stupidity in the streets, while deplorably ignoring their duty to find solutions, instead of BEING the problem.
GNWachs almost 15 years ago
PlainBill
I will assume you are actually trying to have a discussion rather than a snark.
The law of the land today specifically doesn’t cover illegal aliens. BUT, when someone comes to a doctor or hospital for treatment it is illegal to ask for proof of citizenship. Therefore millions of illegal aliens get free care at the cost of billions.
Obama basically said we will continue the current program that illegal aliens will not be covered. He knew that since no questions could be asked what he was saying in practice was not true. That is when Wilson shouted “lie”.
Why because the proposed health care bill did NOT change the requirement that no questions re citizenship could be asked. Therefore just like today in the future millions of illegal aliens would be treated for free. Obama is brilliant and knew that.
After the uproar, on Wednesday, a new clause in the new proposed health care bill was added on Friday. Now we could ask for proof of citizenship. That new clause changes everything. Wilson got accomplished what he wanted.
cdward almost 15 years ago
GNW, serious question. If I understand you correctly, the current system does not allow the hospital (or doctor, I suppose), to ask for proof of citizenship. Correct? But what I don’t understand is, how is that the same as insuring the illegals? Obama said his plan will not insure them (by the way, that’s future tense, so it hasn’t happened yet, so cannot be a lie yet). Obama said they will not be covered by the plan. Presumably they will (and ALL people who choose that option) be required to prove legal status in order to get the insurance.
That is different from a hospital or doctor not being able to ask for proof of citizenship. One is on the insurance end, the other is at the medical service end. Whether or not there is a public option – or any health care reform at all – hospitals and doctors will continue to treat insured and uninsured alike. If they are required to seek proof of citizenship at the hospital, well, that’s a different issue altogether and should be dealt with in a different bill.
Now, are you – or is the Republican Party – suggesting that every patient must provide proof of citizenship before they can receive care (at least the firs time they present themselves)? Would doctors and hospitals be required to get that proof (and presumably file it)? What would the administrative costs be in that? Would it be an unfunded mandate? What would happen if someone were brought in under emergency conditions and could not present any ID?
I’m not trying to be cute here. The entire issue seems much more complicated than commenters here have presented it. But unless I can see where the president’s plan (which is not necessary what the House or Senate had discussed) has a provision that says illegals can receive government insurance, I’m just not seeing how he lied.
believecommonsense almost 15 years ago
Howie, it’s amazing that we keep going over the same ground on this issue. Bush was booed, Clinton was booed. Booing is bipartisan and has happened in the past when Presidents speak to a joint session of Congress.
Yelling “you lie” or “you liar” in an outburst during a presidential speech to a joint session of Congress is unprecedented in modern history. (I’ve read where some believe he said ‘you liar” but, as parker pointed out elsewhere, with the southern accent it could be hard to distinguish).
It does no good for you and others to continue to claim that Democrats have done the same in the past, because it is simply factually inaccurate. Stop with the nonsense. Yelling “you lie” does not equal booing.
believecommonsense almost 15 years ago
plain bill & cdward good posts both of you. Maintaining the status quo re treatment of illegals in ERs is just that — no change. It is not the same as enrolling illegals in a public option plan, if there is to be one. When immigration reform does come up in Congress, their role or lack of role in a health insurance can be debated and determined at that time. I think you and I have agreed in past posts that to attempt any type of changing illegal immigration laws in the healthcare bill will only ensure its defeat.
GNWachs almost 15 years ago
cdward
This is my personal opinion, nothing I read anywhere. I think as a humane society we must offer treatment to each and every person, American or not. I also think we must make a policy decision as to the future of illegal aliens. Citizenship or not? If we offer them insurance the next step, with no way of stopping it, is they will become citizens.
But I want honesty from my President. I want him to say under his plan, illegal aliens will continue to get free medical care because that is what a just society offers. He is implying, to get votes, that will not be true.
cdward almost 15 years ago
GNW, thank you for your response. I agree illegals will probably continue to get care. I did not, however hear the implication that you did in his speech. For the moment, it seems fair to say that insurance will not be available to illegals while care will be.
believecommonsense almost 15 years ago
Howie , wrote: Yes BCS it is amazing how you can deny Democrats were not rude during Bush years.
BCS wrote: Bush was booed, Clinton was booed. Booing is bipartisan and has happened in the past when Presidents speak to a joint session of Congress.
doesn’t sound like a denial to me, Howie.
And Maureen Dowd and former Pres. Carter aren’t elected representatives seated on the floor of the House yelling at a President in the middle of his speech. And I guarantee you there are people across the political spectrum who do not like nor appreciate Dowd’s column and Carter’s remarks.
GNWachs almost 15 years ago
BCS Please find one single Democrat who came out in opposition to what Carter said or chastised him.
believecommonsense almost 15 years ago
GNW: I didn’t say “elected officials” across the political spectrum, I said people. That means me, friends and family that have discussed it. I’m not paying that much attention to what folks are saying about Carter’s remarks in the media. He’s a former president, he can say what he wants, but I don’t think it’s helping.
(added later) I think Carter may have felt he had an obligation to speak up
cjkinsey almost 15 years ago
How does it make sense to not allow illegals to buy into the public option?
How do you practically allow for challenges to people’s citizenship in an emergency? How do you say, well you didn’t bring your passport, with you when you had this heart attack, so please go back and get that before we treat you? Who will be challenged the most, people with dark skin. Come on.
Therefore since you can’t limit emergency care, if you don’t allow them to buy insurance they are more likely to go to an emergency room as eventually care will be needed. Since they aren’t allowed to pay into a system, they can only take out, which will only increase costs.
How is this fiscally responsible?
believecommonsense almost 15 years ago
^ cjkinsey, this is my opinion. A healthcare reform bill cannot attempt to solve immigration reform or tort reform. Doing so would ensure nothing at all gets passed. Thus, I believe the healthcare reform bill should leave things as is (hospitals treat in ERs, and contrary to popular belief, they do receive compensation from the fed govt, they don’t have to “eat” the entire cost).
For me, it’s not a question of fiscal responsibility, it’s a question of limiting this bill to healthcare reform. Obama has stated immigration reform will come later, and I’m sure it will. What that will end up being, no one knows.
Same for tort reform. i think these two issues are a Republican ploy to get their agenda passed through the back door because they know Obama and Dems really want healthcare reform.
Unfortunately, that works on Capitol Hill all the time. In CA, they passed legislation that stops the practice of adding last minute amendments that are not germane to the topic of the bill, and they have made some attempt to limit bills to single topics. Legislation that passes and contains provisions unrelated to topic generally aren’t good legislating, they’re attempts to win votes one by one by giving “bennies” to single individuals.