Cornered by Mike Baldwin for January 03, 2010

At least they don’t have to introduce themselves.

Would they remember?

Alcoholism: The only “disease” since the Dark Ages whose primary treatment consists of praying to a god.

And look how well that works.

A dear friend is still alive because of AA - don’t knock it. See Funky Winkerbean - it is a cartoon - but that is what real friends do.

Far as I know, Anthony, snarkiness never kept anyone sober. How’s it working for you?

I’m going to an AA meeting after the comics. Works for a small percentage of us. Or I could go out and get my 4th DUI. Hope nobody you know is in the way.

byob

The criteria for choosing my Higher Power were: (1) it had to be external to myself; (b) it had to be greater than myself; and (c) it had to actually be able to help me stop drinking. Instead of anything that anybody would call “God”, I chose the AA community as a whole. Any individual within AA might possibly fail me, but the Group would always be there, and I could draw on its collective will power when my own needed shoring up.

AA doesn’t work for everybody, but it works better for more people than anything else out there.

Just calling it as I see it, people. (BTW, when I said “And look how well that works”, I was referring to faith healing as a whole, not just AA.)

Difficult to do legitimate studies on AA due to its anonymous nature, but those that have been done show relapse in over 90% by the end of the first year.

Interestingly, should treatments for other diseases have that success rate, they wouldn’t be so lauded, and people would be working to replace them with something more effective. And if something more effective is found, it’s unlikely that it would be denounced with the religious fervor of those who are successfully using AA.

pksampso, what the hell are you talking about? a snark is a nonsense creature invented by lewis carroll. no such word…..snarkiness. better lay off the booze, until you know what you’re trying to say.

ronaldmundy, “snarkiness” has been an accepted word for years now… For example, your post is kind of snarky, actually.

What worked for me, and changed MY drinking (and smoking) pattern, was simply having kids. They never saw their dad drunk and never saw him drink and drive (but watched me quit smoking completely - 3 packs of cigarettes a day, before). It ended up becoming a lifetime habit, even though the kids are grown and gone. Not preaching to anyone - the only reason I never had a DUI in the pre-kid days was luck, pure and simple… just saying what influenced me to turn things around.

EDIT I still drink beer, BTW, but not to excess - can’t remember the last time I was actually drunk, but it was many, many years ago - and NOT if I’m driving anywhere. A beer and some pork rinds, and the gods themselves don’t fare better…

Anthony said it doesn’t work for 90% of the people who try it. I’ve heard 7 % of us make it the first year. 7% is a lot better than 0% And surprise surprise, a lot of us don’t make it the first time. What are the percentage of other terminal diseases that get cured? My liver may take me out in 20 years, but at least it won’t happen in a homeless shelter or in some alley. Guess I should be ashamed of asking my higher power for help so I could become a contributing member of society.

Why would you be ashamed if it worked for you, Lew?

I’m not suggesting people who find success in AA should abandon it.

But neither should people be forced into it.

There are newer non-religious alternatives available, many based on proven cognitive-behavioral principles.

Analogy: The “original” antibiotic, penicillin, is still used today for certain infections. But if you have one of the many infections for which penicillin doesn’t work, it’s nice to know there are modern alternatives…and that people won’t chastise you for suggesting their use.

(Oh, and to answer your “terminal diseases” question: None of them. Otherwise they wouldn’t be terminal diseases. But alcoholism isn’t a terminal disease…if you stop drinking, then you won’t die from it. A terminal disease is something like pancreatic cancer, which has no good treatment, and is expected to cause death.)

It’s not for me to judge the cartoon.Although I do question it’s message. I just returned from placing my almost fifty year old son into a six month long treatment program for alcoholics. I hope it works.To date , nothing else has including seven or eight short (7 day) programs. This time I asked him to leave funds with his mother and I to cover the cost of burying him. Wow! The response was amazing. He seems to really want to be cured this time.We’ll see!

Aligator, if you want to give your son the best chance of recovery, you need to seriously and rationally evaluate what would work best for him.

If he’s a very religious person who is likely to respond to faith-healing, then one of the near ubiquitous 12-step AA programs might be best.

But otherwise, there are many alternatives:

http://tinyurl.com/ydzk2pb

Anthony, have you read David Foster Wallace’s Infinite Jest? It’s got one of the best (fictional) depictions of 12-Step recovery (both the good and the bad aspects) that has ever been put on paper. In the book, we see people whose “Higher Powers” are the Universe, or the Tao, or (in one memorable case) Satan (the guy came to AA meetings wearing a hooded black cloak and carrying a lighted candle; it creeped a lot of other people out, but hey, as long as it works for him…).

When I was in rehab and first got introduced to AA, and for a good portion of the time thereafter, I ran into a lot of people who couldn’t wrap their heads around “the God thing” (for a time, I was one of them). There are ways around it (as I mentioned in my earlier post), and I tried to help those who were struggling against it. Truth be told, many of the people who objected to using a “Higher Power” were largely just using it as another way to keep drinking: “This cure requires me to call on God; I know there is no God, therefore I can see through the Program, therefore it won’t work for me. I must (read “get to”) keep drinking because I’m TOO SMART for the cure.” That person isn’t ready yet.

The Higher Power (it seems to me) isn’t about God, it’s about Ego-Death. The part of you that wants to keep drinking is going to throw everything in reach in the path of your recovery, including your own intellect. In order to become Sober (defined not simply as “not drinking” but as “not wanting to drink”), you have to stop taking your orders from your Desire. It’s almost Buddhist.

In the Big Book, they say something like “Nobody who has sincerely worked the program has failed to recover” (it’s an admittedly broad statement from 70 years ago or so; they’ve hedged that statement by footnote in later editions), and of course “sincerely worked the program” is the kicker. It’s not a quick fix, and in AA terms anybody who has been in the Rooms for less than a year is still considered a Newcomer, and at risk. They say “It works if you work it”, and that’s true, but that’s a big “if”.

I tend to think that telling a non-religious person that the only way for him to stop drinking is to have the christian god remove his addiction is a move destined for futility and failure.

(If you read about the origins of AA, you’ll see why I used “christian god” above. I know AA claims they aren’t religious, but compare that claim to the end of the Big Book chapter aimed at agnostics:

“”Who are you to say there is no God?”

This man recounts that he tumbled out of bed to his knees. In a few seconds he was overwhelmed by a conviction of the Presence of God. It poured over and through him with the certainty and majesty of a great tide at flood. The barriers he had built through the years were swept away. He stood in the Presence of Infinite Power and Love. He had stepped from bridge to shore. For the first time, he lived in conscious companionship with his Creator.

Thus was our friend’s cornerstone fixed in place. No later vicissitude has shaken it. His alcoholic problem was taken away. That very night, years ago, it disappeared.

Save for a few brief moments of temptation the thought of drink has never returned; and at such times a great revulsion has risen up in him. Seemingly he could not drink even if he would. God had restored his sanity.

What is this but a miracle of healing? Yet its elements are simple. Circumstances made him willing to believe. He humbly offered himself to his Maker - then he knew.

Even so has God restored us all to our right minds. To this man, the revelation was sudden. Some of us grow into it more slowly. But He has come to all who have honestly sought Him.

When we drew near to Him He disclosed Himself to us!”)

Again, if that approach works for a patient, great. But there are non-religious alternatives for those that need them…even if those alternatives deeply offend many AA attendees.

True, I’ve run into people in AA who insist that the only acceptable Higher Power is the Christian God, but that was an old guy back in the Mid-West. Out here on the West Coast (and from Wallace’s description, the same is true in the Boston area), the attitude is much more “whatever works for you.”

The language of the early literature was much more Yahweh-ist, true, but again that’s evolved through the years. Largely for the sake of tradition, the core of the Big Book remains as it was written back in the 1930’s (or whenever), but the stories from alcoholics that make up the bulk of the book are updated from time to time, and reflect a wider range of beliefs.

I agree fully with your earlier statement that nobody should be forced to go to AA. In my experience, AA agrees as well. A judge can order someone to go to AA meetings, but at the meetings I’ve been to the moderators (there are no “leaders”) will sign peoples’ attendence sheets without asking for any verification that the person asking for the signature actually attended the meeting. As far as AA goes, if you don’t want to be there you’re free to leave at any time.

Another thing to remember is that AA was specifically designed for people who simply had no other alternative; if they didn’t quit drinking, they would die. It’s called “hitting bottom”, and before Bill W. came along there really was no other hope for these men (and, later, women). AA is used now as a diversion for people who are on the road to becoming “hopeless” alcoholics, but it was designed to be a desperate measure for desperate people. AA’s “sole purpose” is to get people to stop drinking, not to bring people to God.

Again, I don’t know whether this is peculiar to the Bay Area, but on the listing of meetings here, alongside the “specialty” meetings for artists, musicians, LGBTvTs, there are meetings for “free-thinkers” i.e. atheists. I’ve heard that these also often devolve into people talking more about their atheism than their alcoholism, but I ran into no shortage of atheists in other meetings who worked the program successfully for years and years and years. The guy who brought ME into the program is a high-powered attorney who is a non-practicing Jew. AA was developed by a Christian, but it isn’t run by Christians; it’s run by alcoholics. “The only qualification for membership is a desire to stop drinking.”

Have you read much Vonnegut? He was surely an atheist/agnostic, but he put the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous alongside the Bill of Rights as one of the most significant historical developments to come out of 200+ years of U.S. history, one of the greatest gifts we’ve given to the World.

You’re right that they weren’t alternatives back in the old days, but many have appeared in recent times. Unfortunately, even some addiction health professionals are unaware of them.

Legally speaking, judges can’t force people into AA any more as higher courts have ruled it violates the Establishment Clause…but I imagine some still do it anyway.

Anthony, I think it’s just you and me here anymore, but there’s one final point I want to make, tied into the “desperation” theme.

As I said, in my experience many of the people who butted their heads hardest against “the God thing” were people who frankly didn’t want to quit. If you really want to quit, but find that willpower isn’t enough, you’ll try anything - even praying to a God you don’t believe in. The funny thing about AA is that it works anyway (at least as well as anything else and better than most). “Fake it til you make it” is one of those slogans that seems so shallow yet ends up being so effective.

I suspect that the result has more to do with the subconscious than the soul, but the “magical cure” that people talk about seems akin to satori; your intellect can only get in your way. It’s not irrational, it’s arational.

“If you meet Bill W. on the road, kill him.”

I’m thinking that you don’t understand how the atheist brain is wired.

A theist can decide to believe in something. An atheist cannot…he can only recognize what he believes. It’s not a case of butting their heads against the God thing…it’s just a simple fact.

And why should they fake it at all when there’s other methods?

What’s that last quote about?

I am an atheist. I believe there is no God, no Karma, no Tao. Nonetheless, my experience in rehab was such that, for me, trying to think my way to sobriety wasn’t working.

I’m reading a book about (among other things) how “other-directed” changes of attitude (and behavior) like altruism, forgiveness, and taking responsibility for one’s own actions (rather than blaming others) actually raises dopamine and oxytocin levels in the brain, creating not only a sense of well-being but increased physical well-being as well. Working the Steps (in practice) isn’t about God. It’s about creating a life that is about something other than self-will. Putting the question of one’s sobriety in the hands of a Higher Power (which some people choose to call God) while one’s conscious mind is occupied with moral self-examination and cleaning up the messes of one’s past excesses is sort of a “sleight-of-mind” trick; it’s your brain that’s removing your dependency, without the help of your ego. I know people who claim to have had their addictions “lifted from them” overnight, but I know more people who realize one day (after a lot of work) “You know? I haven’t had a physical craving for alcohol in a LONG TIME!”

And you STAY sober by helping others GET sober. The meetings, the sponsorship, the phone lists are ways to keep you going while you work the steps. If you’ve got a late night craving, it may be suggested that you get on your knees and pray, but it’s STRONGLY suggested that you pick up the phone and call another alcoholic (and for his own sobriety, the alcoholic on the other end is STRONGLY advised to take the call). As I said WAY up above, my own “Higher Power” was the Group. The collected “experience, strength, and hope” of people who had been where I had been (including having the same doubts), and had come out safely on the other side.

Again, read Infinite Jest. Wallace gets it right. There’s an extended passage where he takes the reader through a character’s first AA meeting, complete with all the baffling, simplistic, and counter-intuitive slogans, the grinning wanna-be sponsors who seem to drip condescension every time they offer their phone numbers, the gang of 30-year men at the back of the room who are too intimidating to approach, and the too-smart-for-the-room guys who won’t last two months. It can be infuriating, and every time you voice your frustrations somebody says “Hell yeah, I felt the same way when I first got here! You’re right where you should be, so keep coming back!”

As far as my little “Bill W.” quote goes, it was a half-joke (but no more than half). If the Buddha stands in the way of your Enlightenment, discard the Buddha. If God (or your disbelief in God) is preventing you from working your program, then work it without God. But your Higher Power can’t be your WILLpower, because you’ll just end up white-knuckling it for the rest of your life.

I think I have a pretty good idea of the concept of AA (although I only attended a few meetings back in medical school and internship), and how things can be twisted for the non-believers. I worked with some alcoholics in the Navy, and at that time AA was all I knew. It was enough exposure that I’ve recognized every slogan and platitude you’ve mentioned.

But there are other types of criticisms about the idea of substituting one dependency for another and what-not; the critics point out that altering behaviors using rational emotive behavioral therapy and other cognitive therapies makes more sense.

I think it’s fortunate that there are several ways of approaching addiction. But I also think it’s unfortunate that many AA members take it as a personal insult if you mention either AA’s efficacy, or the fact that alternatives might be better for some people.

It’s as if you questioned their religion. ;)

True, there’s the difference between “AA culture” (going to lots of meetings, plaiying in a sober softball league, etc.), in which I see no harm, and “the AA cult”, which I know exists.

But I don’t see maintaining a regular schedule of meetings, and periodically reworking the Steps, as “swapping one addiction for another.” The type of other-directed, community-oriented behavior I mentioned above isn’t something that stops being useful once the cravings go away. I once read a comment from a sociologist or psychologist or something that “AA is such a marvelous organization that it’s too bad you have to be an alcoholic to join up.” :-)

Full disclosure: I’m no longer “sober” in the AA definition of the word. There was a period in my life when I was drinking until I passed out pretty much every night, but it was more of an ingrained habit than a physical addiction (for instance, when I was in rehab it was stressful as breaking a long-established routine, but there were no physical withdrawal symptoms). I did meetings for three years, and I worked the Steps (without God). I decided to try drinking moderately again, which made a lot of people very nervous. That was almost 7 years ago now, and I’m doing fine. I can drink without feeling like I have to get drunk, I can go without drinking for weeks at a time without feeling any need for it, and I deal with all my old “triggers” in different ways than drowning them in alcohol.

But I still have the greatest respect for AA, even though some of the people *in* it piss me off…

Don’t ever repeat this in an AA meeting, but it’s pretty clear to me that addiction occurs as a continuum…it’s not an all or nothing condition, and you’re a perfect example of that.

Ever heard of Moderation Management?

http://www.moderation.org/

Hadn’t heard of it.

I’d agree with you that addiction is a continuum, and like I said AA was designed for those who had truly bottomed out, and if you read Bill and Dr. Bob talking about the early days it’s clear that was their intent.

Many people binge drink in college (or earlier), and then after graduating settle down into more “normal” drinking. That doesn’t mean that adolescent drinking isn’t a huge problem, but when 22 year olds have been in AA for 5 years and are terrified that another drop of alcohol might someday pass through their lips, I wonder if perhaps there wasn’t another way. The Old Timers who look at these kids and say “I’ve spilled more booze than you’ve swallowed in your whole life” have a point. (In fact, boasting that “I was more effed-up than you were” is common in AA, but it serves a purpose. Some people really have pulled themselves out of hell to get their chips, so “War Stories” but drive home the seriousness of the disease but also provide great hope.)

Still, as I said I have tremendous respect for the organization as a whole, not only in terms of its effectiveness but in terms of its structure. It truly runs from the bottom up rather than the top down. The “higher” you go, the less authority is wielded. It’s the closest I’ve seen to a functioning anarchy.

I’ve run into a couple of people I knew in the Rooms who, when they found out that I’m currently “outside”, look at me pityingly and say that I’ll be back. Maybe they’re right, but “So far, so good, and thank you for your concern.” However, if I DO feel that drinking is becoming a problem again, I know where to go.

Agreed that it’s an amazing organization…the fact that you can find meetings just about anywhere…even on cruise ships.

Anyway, I guess we’ve about squeezed all out of the topic. Agreed?

It’s been enjoyable.

My pleasure.

Word of the day time! wood bleeep (circa 1899)

Wood bleeep is another name for a skunk