Democrats don’t actually care if the CIA tortured people, they’re just trying to deflect the bad press about their medical reform and other money-wasting projects.
When Bush needed better poll number, he would try to raise the security level threats, and now Obama’s trick is to pull up stuff Bush did…..and the next President is going to bring up Obama’s misdeeds or something else when he or she needs to deflect bad press too.
Misdirect the outrage so you can keep doing business as usual..
Of course if we compare Taliban torture to CIA torture then we might as well be taking them to Disney Land.. On the bright side we’re being humane enough to not cut anyone’s head off when we’re done..
I know it’s fun to bash the folks with opposing views with your cheap shots and one-liners but in reality you are either preaching to the choir or trying to open a closed mind… why bother?… don’t waste your energy…
Fact check, iamthelorax: Obama actually wanted to leave the question of torture behind us. Attorney General Holder made the decision of his own volition to appoint a special prosecutor. Bush is the one who used the Justice Department for partisan purposes, not Obama.
bobreid, you’re right, because being nice is the only alternative to torture, right? Listen, I’ve got a friend in the Marines (doing intelligence work) with whom I disagree on absolutely everything except this. He’s more conservative than most any one of you folks on this board. And he maintains that torture is the absolute worst way to gain intelligence.
I was actually shocked when he made a comment on my Facebook page agreeing with me on the topic.
Torture being the worst way to gain intelligence is a moralistic philosophical quandry..
In the not so nice world sometimes things have to be done to achieve certain ends.. Its not pretty but I have no qualms about people using whatever means are necessary to stop bombing rampages and protect our people.. There are means of interrogation that are harsh but reasonable, the question is.. Where as a nation are we willing to draw the line and will that line still allow us to get the job done?
offtopic:tpenna, how do you get things in bold? I can do italics, but can’t do bold.
ontopic:tpenna, Obama says he doesn’t want to look backwards on camera, but that’s what politicians do, it’s called CYA. Once the cameras are off, reporters are gone, forget about it.
I don’t doubt one bit Bush did it too, but to say Obama wouldn’t do it? Don’t bet the farm on that one.
I mean seriously, the news was bombarded with people furious at Obama and all of a sudden this comes up? I don’t think so. It’s all politics.
offtopic: iamthelorax, I get bold type by entering two underscores before and after the text I want formatted. By entering three underscores, you can get bold italics. Enjoy!
ontopic: WestTex13, believe me, this buddy of mine in the Marines doesn’t let morals get in the way of his determination that torture is ineffective. This guy loves watching things (and enemies) get blown up. I once got sick listening to him go on and on about killing people.
Besides that, are you advocating setting aside moral concerns? Surely not. I would imagine that your determination that torture is warranted is based on a moral argument, albeit a utilitarian one. I’m simply pointing out that, even on utilitarian grounds, torture is wrong because it is ineffective.
And iamthelorax, political interference with Justice Department investigations is illegal. I am not putting it past Obama. I am just pointing out that a lot of people here are making a lot of noise without really knowing quite what they are accusing the President of doing. Because things occur concurrently does not mean there is causation. This hasn’t just sprung up all of the sudden. Holder’s been working on this for several months now.
tpenna I am not an advocate of many forms of torture. I also do not consider some forms of harsh interogation torture. I would not condone sliding sliver of bamboo under finger nails, amputation, insertion of salt into lacerations or other forms of torture. I am hesitant to classify waterboarding as torture over interrogation. (Mental break drown without impacting boldily harm versus destruction of the tissue) As America we must lead by example. It is our duty as a global power.. Where the line should be drawn is not something I can do in a post and I would prefer indepth conversation prior to making a knee jerk reaction in regards to such a serious topic.
I believe that the effectiveness of torture is relevant to the individual.. Somethings I can tolerate would break some people.. Things that would break me would be sluffed off by others.. If there is a proven more effective means that is expedient then it should be used but we would have to devise certain means and then classify them less enemy forces be indoctinated to effective resist such administrations. The classification itself could be harmful because sometimes what is done behind closed doors is sicking to most individuals..
Tough topic truth be told.. I appreciate your feedback and discussion its been pleasant..
These “eye for an eye” folks are probably right up front in Cnurch. We are supposed to be more civilized. Furthermore, in the shady world of the CIA, it is not above reason to suspect that many of those tortured were fingered just to further some guys career.
These “eye for an eye” folks are probably right up front in Church. We are supposed to be more civilized. Furthermore, in the shady world of the CIA, it is not above reason to suspect that many of those tortured were fingered just to further some guy’s career.
It should be noted that CIA in Yemen HAD good information on 9/11 BEFORE the attack, that was ignored by “Mr Vigilant” and his staff. The information was secured by means both legal and effective.
There are folks out there that a drill won’t get the information out of, they are fanatics. There are other techniques that might work. In the classic “excuse” for torture - Torture = dead kid.
Or the Republicans still try to pretend it’s 9/11?
I have to admit though, the GOP has one heck of a marketing machine. They sold the president on whose so-called “watch” 9/11 happened as the guy who was best equipped to deal with terrorism. The guy who could keep America safe. Riiight.
Then again, Bush in 2000 ran on promises to restore honor and integrity to the White House and not to engage in nation-building, so what else is new?
“take all steps to defend her”? bobreid, do you not realize how silly that sounds to us?
What we’re asserting is that torture does not work. We assert this because virtually the entire intelligence community tells us this.
In essence, what we are saying is torturing to defend America is as effective as drinking beer to defend America. There is a disconnect. One does not lead to the other.
Yet you accuse us of being negligent because we refuse to drink beer to defend America. Perhaps you can work to convince us that torture is effective somehow.
Well, okay. Ad hominem attacks. I guess that’s one way to counter a reasonable argument. Doesn’t win you much respect, bobreid, but it certainly makes all the other fourteen year old kids laugh right along with you.
Reflex Now the problem is this.. Define torture.. To some mere incarceration is henous.. To others it is physical harm.. To others not getting their lunch at 11:30 instead of 12 is inhumane..
Is physical harm torture? Yes.. Is Mental Harm torture? Maybe Is Social harm torture? Perhaps.. Its difficult to define unless we have a clear line where the difference between interrogation and torture is..
If water boarding was not classified as torture then water boarding should be effective per research, but if it is torture then it is ineffective.. because we haven’t clearly defined ineffective torture versus effective interrogation we have a problem..
If we do define it then we set guidelines for operatives to be trained to resist.. Where is the margin out error out of the gray and into the black..
Then if we all know what torture is then define it please in simple terms.. What is torture and what isn’t.. and see how many people disagree with you..
So torture is only as you see it based on your feelings and emotion vestment in the situation at hand? That seems very loose for such an inhumane crime.. So basically.. Torture is merely opinion and there are no credentials or defining basis?
toasteroven almost 15 years ago
Dear lord this is stupid.
Listen. I can draw stick figures. I’m quite adept at slapping labels on things that need no labels. And, as a bonus, I’m completely clueless.
So, I’m going to become a political cartoonist. I mean, if these people are published, I shouldn’t have a problem, right?
HUMPHRIES almost 15 years ago
Benson must have a glass stomach to see where she’s going. W ‘s watch “viglance” !! More like letting uncle Dick round up the votes.
Buzzy-One almost 15 years ago
hq, come in from the cold, uncle Dick can’t bite you anymore.
Doreen Rice Premium Member almost 15 years ago
I guess all the torture apologists are o.k. with us having NO moral standing in the world to speak to ANY country about their human rights abuses.
We are now abusers too and have no voice in this matter.
Thanks George, Thanks DICK …. and thanks to all of you sheeple that still believe it is o.k. to torture.
iamthelorax almost 15 years ago
Democrats don’t actually care if the CIA tortured people, they’re just trying to deflect the bad press about their medical reform and other money-wasting projects.
When Bush needed better poll number, he would try to raise the security level threats, and now Obama’s trick is to pull up stuff Bush did…..and the next President is going to bring up Obama’s misdeeds or something else when he or she needs to deflect bad press too.
charliekane almost 15 years ago
The learning curve is tough for some. Ineffective, bad policy, and just kinda wrong, don’t you think?
WestTex13 almost 15 years ago
Iamthelorax - Nailed the issue on the head..
Misdirect the outrage so you can keep doing business as usual..
Of course if we compare Taliban torture to CIA torture then we might as well be taking them to Disney Land.. On the bright side we’re being humane enough to not cut anyone’s head off when we’re done..
padagge almost 15 years ago
All ya’all!
I know it’s fun to bash the folks with opposing views with your cheap shots and one-liners but in reality you are either preaching to the choir or trying to open a closed mind… why bother?… don’t waste your energy…
Dtroutma almost 15 years ago
Revenge for perceived attack on “daddy”, is not “vigilance”.
cjkinsey almost 15 years ago
Where was the vigilance on 9/11?
tpenna almost 15 years ago
Fact check, iamthelorax: Obama actually wanted to leave the question of torture behind us. Attorney General Holder made the decision of his own volition to appoint a special prosecutor. Bush is the one who used the Justice Department for partisan purposes, not Obama.
tpenna almost 15 years ago
bobreid, you’re right, because being nice is the only alternative to torture, right? Listen, I’ve got a friend in the Marines (doing intelligence work) with whom I disagree on absolutely everything except this. He’s more conservative than most any one of you folks on this board. And he maintains that torture is the absolute worst way to gain intelligence.
I was actually shocked when he made a comment on my Facebook page agreeing with me on the topic.
WestTex13 almost 15 years ago
Torture being the worst way to gain intelligence is a moralistic philosophical quandry..
In the not so nice world sometimes things have to be done to achieve certain ends.. Its not pretty but I have no qualms about people using whatever means are necessary to stop bombing rampages and protect our people.. There are means of interrogation that are harsh but reasonable, the question is.. Where as a nation are we willing to draw the line and will that line still allow us to get the job done?
iamthelorax almost 15 years ago
offtopic:tpenna, how do you get things in bold? I can do italics, but can’t do bold.
ontopic:tpenna, Obama says he doesn’t want to look backwards on camera, but that’s what politicians do, it’s called CYA. Once the cameras are off, reporters are gone, forget about it.
I don’t doubt one bit Bush did it too, but to say Obama wouldn’t do it? Don’t bet the farm on that one.
I mean seriously, the news was bombarded with people furious at Obama and all of a sudden this comes up? I don’t think so. It’s all politics.
tpenna almost 15 years ago
offtopic: iamthelorax, I get bold type by entering two underscores before and after the text I want formatted. By entering three underscores, you can get bold italics. Enjoy!
ontopic: WestTex13, believe me, this buddy of mine in the Marines doesn’t let morals get in the way of his determination that torture is ineffective. This guy loves watching things (and enemies) get blown up. I once got sick listening to him go on and on about killing people.
Besides that, are you advocating setting aside moral concerns? Surely not. I would imagine that your determination that torture is warranted is based on a moral argument, albeit a utilitarian one. I’m simply pointing out that, even on utilitarian grounds, torture is wrong because it is ineffective.
And iamthelorax, political interference with Justice Department investigations is illegal. I am not putting it past Obama. I am just pointing out that a lot of people here are making a lot of noise without really knowing quite what they are accusing the President of doing. Because things occur concurrently does not mean there is causation. This hasn’t just sprung up all of the sudden. Holder’s been working on this for several months now.
HUMPHRIES almost 15 years ago
Howiee, crawl in to the mud with them … then what seperates us from them?
tpenna almost 15 years ago
bobreid, I did answer your question by pointing out the fact that it is a false bifurcation. Those are not the only two options.
WestTex13 almost 15 years ago
tpenna I am not an advocate of many forms of torture. I also do not consider some forms of harsh interogation torture. I would not condone sliding sliver of bamboo under finger nails, amputation, insertion of salt into lacerations or other forms of torture. I am hesitant to classify waterboarding as torture over interrogation. (Mental break drown without impacting boldily harm versus destruction of the tissue) As America we must lead by example. It is our duty as a global power.. Where the line should be drawn is not something I can do in a post and I would prefer indepth conversation prior to making a knee jerk reaction in regards to such a serious topic.
I believe that the effectiveness of torture is relevant to the individual.. Somethings I can tolerate would break some people.. Things that would break me would be sluffed off by others.. If there is a proven more effective means that is expedient then it should be used but we would have to devise certain means and then classify them less enemy forces be indoctinated to effective resist such administrations. The classification itself could be harmful because sometimes what is done behind closed doors is sicking to most individuals..
Tough topic truth be told.. I appreciate your feedback and discussion its been pleasant..
PS thanks for the code for bolding..
lesmcf almost 15 years ago
These “eye for an eye” folks are probably right up front in Cnurch. We are supposed to be more civilized. Furthermore, in the shady world of the CIA, it is not above reason to suspect that many of those tortured were fingered just to further some guys career.
lesmcf almost 15 years ago
These “eye for an eye” folks are probably right up front in Church. We are supposed to be more civilized. Furthermore, in the shady world of the CIA, it is not above reason to suspect that many of those tortured were fingered just to further some guy’s career.
deadheadzan almost 15 years ago
bobreid you are a big 24 fan- am I right? You should learn to distinguish between fiction and reality.
nomad2112 almost 15 years ago
Spot on Benson ! ! !
Dtroutma almost 15 years ago
It should be noted that CIA in Yemen HAD good information on 9/11 BEFORE the attack, that was ignored by “Mr Vigilant” and his staff. The information was secured by means both legal and effective.
There are folks out there that a drill won’t get the information out of, they are fanatics. There are other techniques that might work. In the classic “excuse” for torture - Torture = dead kid.
cjr53 almost 15 years ago
Not sure how anyone can equate the worst attack on American soil with vigilance.
He just sat there when the attack was first reported. Almost as if he already knew, or really is slow.
nospam4me almost 15 years ago
Sums it up pretty well. Democrats are cuckoo!
Buzzy-One almost 15 years ago
nospam4me … only the Democrats, my, my what a rosey world you live in.
4uk4ata almost 15 years ago
“Sums it up pretty well. Democrats are cuckoo!”
Or the Republicans still try to pretend it’s 9/11?
I have to admit though, the GOP has one heck of a marketing machine. They sold the president on whose so-called “watch” 9/11 happened as the guy who was best equipped to deal with terrorism. The guy who could keep America safe. Riiight.
Then again, Bush in 2000 ran on promises to restore honor and integrity to the White House and not to engage in nation-building, so what else is new?
tpenna almost 15 years ago
“take all steps to defend her”? bobreid, do you not realize how silly that sounds to us?
What we’re asserting is that torture does not work. We assert this because virtually the entire intelligence community tells us this.
In essence, what we are saying is torturing to defend America is as effective as drinking beer to defend America. There is a disconnect. One does not lead to the other.
Yet you accuse us of being negligent because we refuse to drink beer to defend America. Perhaps you can work to convince us that torture is effective somehow.
tpenna almost 15 years ago
Well, okay. Ad hominem attacks. I guess that’s one way to counter a reasonable argument. Doesn’t win you much respect, bobreid, but it certainly makes all the other fourteen year old kids laugh right along with you.
WestTex13 almost 15 years ago
Reflex Now the problem is this.. Define torture.. To some mere incarceration is henous.. To others it is physical harm.. To others not getting their lunch at 11:30 instead of 12 is inhumane..
Is physical harm torture? Yes.. Is Mental Harm torture? Maybe Is Social harm torture? Perhaps.. Its difficult to define unless we have a clear line where the difference between interrogation and torture is..
If water boarding was not classified as torture then water boarding should be effective per research, but if it is torture then it is ineffective.. because we haven’t clearly defined ineffective torture versus effective interrogation we have a problem..
If we do define it then we set guidelines for operatives to be trained to resist.. Where is the margin out error out of the gray and into the black..
WestTex13 almost 15 years ago
Then if we all know what torture is then define it please in simple terms.. What is torture and what isn’t.. and see how many people disagree with you..
WestTex13 almost 15 years ago
So torture is only as you see it based on your feelings and emotion vestment in the situation at hand? That seems very loose for such an inhumane crime.. So basically.. Torture is merely opinion and there are no credentials or defining basis?