But, Joe, God did not hand us the Bible, gift-wrapped and all, from heaven. God did establish a community of faith, which identified and collected the writings that make up the Bible–and it’s that community that has various forms of forgiveness, one of which is confession to the church through its minister, a priest.
Don’t know about your church, ”Joe”, but my church did argue for more than 60 years about the Bible. And it was pretty well established long before Constantine came along. The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in A.D. 170. The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John.
Also by that time, the Apostolic Succession was recognized, as well as the Bishop-Priest-Deacon hierarchy noted in the Letters of Ignatius, written about 110, the Bishop of Rome as successor to Peter (nowhere else claims his tomb, or Paul’s either), and Justin Martyr had written about the liturgy of the Christians–recognizable as of the same form as our Eucharistic liturgy ever since, with the leaving out of the secret of the Consecration. In fact, that liturgy is even pretty much recognizable from 1 Cor 10.
True, they did not have separate churches–but then they wouldn’t: until Constantine’s edict, being a Christian was at best only semi-legal, but any major gathering would have been definitely illegal. Not to mention owning large buildings in which to gather.
The Real Church may have begun as individuals–but it was gathered by Jesus the Christ himself as a community of disciples, led by the Twelve–and certainly a community by the time the Holy Spirit came on them at Pentecost. (Hence Luke’s mention of 120 disciples when they chose Matthias to fill out the Twelve: sufficient for a congregation). And, in John 14-17, he prays for the Church, not as individuals, but as a community of faith, and promises the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, who will remind them of the whole truth, including that Jesus was not able to teach them, and will keep them united.
One of the natural evolutions of ritual is to a more formal, standard liturgy. That does not make them “cut and dried”. There are a variety of liturgies I lead and others I follow. My private prayer and Bible reading is even more varied, as is only natural.
As for approaching through Jesus, all the sacraments have Jesus himself as the “true” minister; the human minister only “takes the place of Christ.” But who better to take that place: someone called by the Spirit, prepared as best we humanly can, prayed for daily by the gathered Church? Or someone who just “happens to pick up the book” (as the Rule of Benedict says on the table reader at one point)?
And, on forgiveness itself: In Mark 2:7, the scribes ask, “Who but God can forgive sins?” Yet Jesus, a human (and God, although they do not then see it) forgives sins, and heals. Similarly, Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 use very similar language about forgiving sins: one is addressed to Peter, just being named first among the Twelve, and the other to the disciples. Forgiveness is a community matter, and so the leaders of the community are inevitably involved.
One other minor point: Joe speaks of the “Church’s so-called ‘Early Church Fathers’ ”.
Well, some of them were early. The “Apostolic Fathers” were writings from soon after, or even contemporaneous with the New Testament, writings from 100 A.D. or earlier to about 150. There are several others from before 200, Justin Martyr and Iraneus being two that come to mind. How much earlier do they have to be to be actual ‘Early Church Fathers’?
detour_jones about 15 years ago
Three more peter, paul and hail mary’s for the dude…
Yukoneric about 15 years ago
I sing like that, also. I go to church just to get even for receiving a bad voice.
Plods with ...™ about 15 years ago
Must have a grating voice
celeconecca about 15 years ago
Confessional Moments…
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgmQM9cDPHk)
Digital Frog about 15 years ago
Nice one Detour_Jones!
fredbuhl about 15 years ago
A priest with a tin ear?
jpozenel about 15 years ago
Sad.
bmonk about 15 years ago
But, Joe, God did not hand us the Bible, gift-wrapped and all, from heaven. God did establish a community of faith, which identified and collected the writings that make up the Bible–and it’s that community that has various forms of forgiveness, one of which is confession to the church through its minister, a priest.
jpozenel about 15 years ago
Once again, a desperate cry for attention.
Bargrove about 15 years ago
We would not let our kid sing through a screen like
that one. It would strain his voice. (Drum wack)
bmonk about 15 years ago
Don’t know about your church, ”Joe”, but my church did argue for more than 60 years about the Bible. And it was pretty well established long before Constantine came along. The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in A.D. 170. The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John.
Also by that time, the Apostolic Succession was recognized, as well as the Bishop-Priest-Deacon hierarchy noted in the Letters of Ignatius, written about 110, the Bishop of Rome as successor to Peter (nowhere else claims his tomb, or Paul’s either), and Justin Martyr had written about the liturgy of the Christians–recognizable as of the same form as our Eucharistic liturgy ever since, with the leaving out of the secret of the Consecration. In fact, that liturgy is even pretty much recognizable from 1 Cor 10.
True, they did not have separate churches–but then they wouldn’t: until Constantine’s edict, being a Christian was at best only semi-legal, but any major gathering would have been definitely illegal. Not to mention owning large buildings in which to gather.
The Real Church may have begun as individuals–but it was gathered by Jesus the Christ himself as a community of disciples, led by the Twelve–and certainly a community by the time the Holy Spirit came on them at Pentecost. (Hence Luke’s mention of 120 disciples when they chose Matthias to fill out the Twelve: sufficient for a congregation). And, in John 14-17, he prays for the Church, not as individuals, but as a community of faith, and promises the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, who will remind them of the whole truth, including that Jesus was not able to teach them, and will keep them united.
One of the natural evolutions of ritual is to a more formal, standard liturgy. That does not make them “cut and dried”. There are a variety of liturgies I lead and others I follow. My private prayer and Bible reading is even more varied, as is only natural.
As for approaching through Jesus, all the sacraments have Jesus himself as the “true” minister; the human minister only “takes the place of Christ.” But who better to take that place: someone called by the Spirit, prepared as best we humanly can, prayed for daily by the gathered Church? Or someone who just “happens to pick up the book” (as the Rule of Benedict says on the table reader at one point)?
And, on forgiveness itself: In Mark 2:7, the scribes ask, “Who but God can forgive sins?” Yet Jesus, a human (and God, although they do not then see it) forgives sins, and heals. Similarly, Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 use very similar language about forgiving sins: one is addressed to Peter, just being named first among the Twelve, and the other to the disciples. Forgiveness is a community matter, and so the leaders of the community are inevitably involved.
bmonk about 15 years ago
One other minor point: Joe speaks of the “Church’s so-called ‘Early Church Fathers’ ”.
Well, some of them were early. The “Apostolic Fathers” were writings from soon after, or even contemporaneous with the New Testament, writings from 100 A.D. or earlier to about 150. There are several others from before 200, Justin Martyr and Iraneus being two that come to mind. How much earlier do they have to be to be actual ‘Early Church Fathers’?