Doonesbury by Garry Trudeau for December 27, 2012

Hey, Let’s kill an atheist for Christ !

Scarey thought but that’s what Fox News and Bill O’reilly instigated before the abortion doctor in Kansas got gunned down in his own church. And he obviously wasn’t an atheist.

Rupert Murder …ah.. Murdoch made his fortune on sensationalism. Sex and Violence sells papers. Fox News is just a continuation of that policy with a heavy dose of far right thoughtlessness thrown in to appeal to the ditto heads.

“In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.” This is the kind of Atheist we need more of, people who have had their conscience weaken by Atheism. Atheist like Stalin, Mao and a host of others Atheists.

Is the anus an organ?

B-roll is, or can be, fake footage. Meaning, next year Fox News will feature a different manufactured manger incident at a different venue. And if for any reason they need footage of “the different manger”, they can use the backup b-roll from this one.

Is that a deceitful practice foisted off on the public? Is it common? Do other TV news organizations also do it?

(Before this strip I had no idea what “b-roll” is and had to google it to learn.)

IF IT HAD THE POWER, FOX NEWS WOULD TREAT ATHEISTS AS GOEBBELS TREATED THE JEWS

In 1939, in a speech to the Reichstag, Hitler had said:If international finance Jewry in and outside Europe should succeed in thrusting the nations once again into a world war, then the result will … be the destruction of the Jewish race in Europe.69

The view of most historians is that the decision to proceed with the extermination of the Jews was taken at some point in late 1941.70

¶

¶In December, he was present when Hitler addressed a meeting of Gauleiters and other senior Nazis, discussing among other things the “Jewish question.” [Goebbels] wrote in his diary afterward:

With regard to the Jewish Question, the Führer is determined to make a clean sweep of it. He prophesied that … they would experience their annihilation. That was no empty talk. The world war is here [this was the week Germany declared war on the United States]. The annihilation of Jewry must be the necessary consequence. The question is to be viewed without any sentimentality. …

During 1942, Goebbels continued to press for the “final solution to the Jewish question” to be carried forward as quickly as possible now that Germany had occupied a huge swathe of Soviet territory into which all the Jews of German-controlled Europe could be deported. There they could be worked into extinction …. [T]here were still 40,000 Jews in Berlin.73 …. “It would be best to kill them altogether.”74 … He wrote:

The Jews are now being deported to the east. … 60 percent of them must be liquidated, while only 40 percent can be put to work […] A judgment is being carried out on the Jews which is barbaric, but fully deserved.76.

Reich propaganda minister GoebbelsChancellor of Germany In office 30 April 1945 – 1 May 1945Spouse Magda RitschelChildren 6Alma mater University of Bonn

You can read the full unexpurgated version at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbel

Nicely done, D W. So true, masterskrain. And if anyone believes that because it’s Old Testament and therefore doesn’t apply anymore, I refer you to what Jesus said in Matthew.5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

There’s a lot of stupid sniping between religious and non-religious here, and it’s not particularly edifying. There have been plenty of cold-blooded killers for the sake of religion (misguided or delusional as they were) and there have been plenty of cold-blooded killers totally unrelated to any religious tradition at all. Furthermore, there have been plenty of cold-blooded killers using religion as an excuse for their killing even though they have no regard for the teachings or morals of that religion. So what? All this proves is that every segment of society has cold-blooded killers which makes nobody morally superior to anybody else. And if you’re busy trying to prove that your group is morally superior – or that the other group is inferior, then you have some growing up to do.There are a lot Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and so on who could easily and happily collaborate with atheists in many projects to make this a better world. So what if you believe different things about the “Why” and the “Who” of creation and afterlife? It is possible to find common ground on the here and now. Geez.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The bible is a record of people often being idiots but also having moments of enlightenment and grace. Sounds pretty much like all humanity.

“I needed the money for drugs” and “God told me to do it” are perfectly viable excuses for committing atrocities…just pick the one that appeals to your political preferences.

God should have rested on the 6th day.

Seems to me that folks who believe in their version of “god” cause more damage and destruction than atheists ever did.

Perhaps religion is the problem.

Pacopuddy, they all do. Read the bible, especially the old testament, but even in the new. And the koran is full of it too. Atheism cures religious terrorism.

Hey DT, I don’t think you are decending into just plain crap, nor do I think you are descending into just plain crap…

As someone who lives not very far away from where the late Dr. Tiller practiced, I know that the real crap does indeed come from Fox News. Too bad that abortion continues to be needed for women. I think it will become much more rare if the American Academy of Obstetrician Gynecologists has their way and oral contraceptives become available OTC. The American Academy of Pediatricians has endorsed this as well. The right wing always wants to have it both ways. Where is the outrage over Viagra being covered for men?

The War on Christmas is a snow job. Don’t eat the yellow journalism.

fox news has done more harm than good.

Aaaand, back to the strip: “Well, Mr Hedley, if you’ve never killed an atheist, i just happen to have my Bushmaster right here and I can show you how it’s done!”

“The various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful. And thus toleration produced not only mutual indulgence, but even religious concord.” – Edward Gibbon, “Union And Internal Prosperity Of The Roman Empire, In The Age Of The Antonines”

It’s ALL the democrats fault. So says Fox ‘news’.

@montessoriteacher “Too bad that abortion continues to be needed for women….The right wing always wants to have it both ways. Where is the outrage over Viagra being covered for men?”

*

Thank you!

I always felt they were like opinions: everbody has one and nobody wants to hear it.

What does an atheist base it’s ethics and morality on?

goweeder: The inquisition was not Biblical, no where in scripture are Christian commanded to do that.

Hmmm…the CIA has “assisted interrogation techniques”…. some religions have “assisted conversion techniques.”

“Atheists don’t worship anything.”

Depends on the atheist.

Tim Culberson said, 24 minutes ago

goweeder: The inquisition was not Biblical, no where in scripture are Christian commanded to do that

And the Crusades. ( I am guessing you didn’t read DW’s comment) Sounded well-documented to me.

Wow, Trudeau advocating violence, who’d a thunk it? Pretty sad, or just babyish.

DylanThomas, the Nazis were largely atheists; so you’re saying you fear Republicans will act like the atheists did??

“As early as 1931 the idea of using the Jews (among others) as scape goats was part of how the Nazis operated.”

Not just the Nazis. “[U]sing the Jews … as scapegoats” in Europe goes back to Nero, mid-century CE, when Jewish Christian Paul in Romans was telling fellow Christians not to reciprocate in kind.

Also, Martin Luther was prejudiced against the Jews, and the Nazis used that historical fact to convince Lutherans in Germany (roughly half the population at the time) to jump onto the nationalistic juggernaut. Which they did. In almost unbelievable numbers.

“… I worship nothing.”

Not even Mammon?

“Seasisme said, ‘Wow, Trudeau advocating violence, who’d a thunk it? Pretty sad, or just babyish.’”

Mr. (or perhaps Ms.) Seasisme needs someone to help him looking up definitions: “advocating” and “satire.” It’s a subtle distinction, but apparently beyond him….

‘Sometimes the societal group as a whole can perform acts that can better their society to the detriment of another, like declaring war.)’Actually, in many cases, war is started by psychopathic leaders for their own personal benefit or reasons. Unless a country is attacked (Pearl Harbor), war is usually unnecessary (WW I, Iraq)..And from what I read, Hitler, who was a neopagan himself, sought out religious subordinates and officers, feeling they would be more malleable. As they were.

Omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenevolence: When it comes to a god, any god, choose at most two.To put another way what several commenters here have pointed out, if one is willing to cut and paste enough, one can make a telephone directory say whatever one wants. Citing carefully chosen bits of scripture has been highest, albeit bogus, “scholarship” amongst theologians of all stripes for centuries, yea millennia. None of it ever built more than a kite or a cathedral, yet in less than two centuries the “tornado in a junkyard” that is science has built and performed a near infinity of what can only be called miracles (not always good ones, however…). I’ll take science, thank you.Pasta vobiscum.

There are one archaic and two current definitions of atheism in Webster’s 11th:

2a : a disbelief in the existence of deity.

2b : the doctrine that there is no deity.

2b is unambiguous, since “doctrine” is a kind of belief.

Re 2a, I have consistently held on this website that a “disbelief” (since it is an opinion / human thought / concept) is form (or subset) of belief. Others differ. Which is okay by me.

After prolonged discussion here I can see why Webster chose to split the modern definition of “atheism” into two parts! Language does change and evolve. It would be interesting to see how dictionaries define the word 100 years into the future.

“Then you obviously have not read the bible. The bible, especially the old testament, is a very barbaric in its treatment of people.” But you only cite OT texts! Since Christians accpet both the OT and the NT, with the NT “the fulfilment of the OT”, your comments really apply to Judaism, I would think.

“Actually you did say that Atheists “worship” things and that makes it religious.”

Nein.

‘Organ’ is right.

“I don’t disbelieve in gods just that the evidence doesn’t show they exist so why bother?”

I don’t agree that belief / disbelief in God is based in scientifically acquired or historical-critical evidence. Certainly not for me.

I would also add, as I have before, Constantine’s Sword by James Carroll, a former priest. He lays out the entire history as to how Christianity went from Jesus’ disciples’ religion of resurrection to Constantine’s religion of death, for which we, of course, were responsible. He discusses many RCC philosophers and how at key points they might have mitigated anti-Semitism but were always overruled by those who chose the path of genocide. Up to and including the pope who worked with Hitler to give him the church’s stamp of approval. He also lays out the case for Vatican III, which could end that. Except that his book was written before the succession to power of the last head of the Inquisition to the papacy. So, not gonna happen.

‘Christians should have to answer for Yahweh’s.’.I don’t know about your beliefs, but why would people who reject the Bible and God want anyone held accountable for something written in a book of myths?

Actually, Christians and atheists have almost identical beliefs…they both reject the existence of thousands of gods. Atheists merely reject one more than the Christians…percentage-wise, that’s nothing.

There is no God, god, or gods. There are no ghosts or spirits, holy or otherwise. Likewise no goblins, devils, angels, saints, demons, or anything else supernatural. And that includes Santa Claus.

But who doesn’t love a winter festival of light, good cheer, and gift giving?

“…How about we ALL agree … not to try to convince ANYONE ELSE …? Sound good to you guys??”

“The unexamined life is not worth living for a human being.”

—(Attributed by Plato to) Socrates (who left no writings of his own), c.470 BCE – 399 BCE, Athens.

Re Ashera: I don’t necessarily endorse this site as the best scholarship around, but it does give a basic understanding of Yahweh’s / Yahvew’s supposed consort / wife in the minds of many Israelites of the bronze age.

http://thequeenofheaven.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/asherah-part-i-the-lost-bride-of-yahweh/

‘My guess is that Amelekites were a nasty bunch and were not destroyed completely because one of their descendants, Haman, tried to get all the Jews killed (see Esther).’.Actually, according to the Midrash, Amalek (root meaning to cool, as in cooling the Israelites’ ardor for God) had the habit of picking off the tired and weak stragglers, killing them and cutting off the place that was circumcised and throwing into the sky to mock God. Can’t see why anyone would dislike them….Yes, Saul was supposed to wipe them out and didn’t, leaving King Agag alive long enough to sire a line that had as a member Haman the Agagite. And leaving to us enemies for millennia – Haman, Hitler, Khomani….

‘the Greeks had the best system of gods’Sex, lies, but no videotape. The world’s first soap opera.

Ancient images of Asherah. (Click on any one.)

http://www.google.com/search?q=Asherah&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=u&gl=us&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=pLXcULP5B8iMiALUnIH4CQ&ved=0CFAQsAQ&biw=1521&bih=914

Garry Trudeau has gotten so cynical that this strip is utterly worthless.

GT continues to be as brilliant as ever. The fact that he criticizes Fox News doesn’t make him a cynic, only a realist. Fox is horribly biased.

Where is the thumbs up when you need one.Except for the last panel where it gets stupid.

@Beekeeper62 said, about 15 hours ago

“In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.” This is the kind of Atheist we need more of, people who have had their conscience weaken by Atheism. Atheist like Stalin, Mao and a host of others Atheists.

Here is another weak conscioused Atheist we need to watch out for:

“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church.” Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

And this one:

“Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.”

“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.”

“It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

- Thomas Jefferson

“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.” –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Many who toss out faith fail to realizes that it is the Hebraic-Christian God CONCEPT that evolves from a ruthless murderer to a God of infinite love (in, e.g., the Gospel and Epistles of John). God as God doesn’t evolve in this manner. The earliest writers put much that is merely human into the emerging picture of Yahveh, not the emerging Yahveh.

Religion does not encourage people to commit evil, but people who commit evil are happy to use religion as an excuse.

The simple fact is, America is becoming a more secular society. One out of six Americans identify themselves as having no religious identity.One out of three Americans under 30 do not claim to have a religious identity. The Religious Right, that started its ascent about 30 years ago, is actually losing power and all churches- mainline and evangelical- are losing members.The more Fox and O’Reilly diatribe about this war on Christmas, the more foolish they look.Fox and O’Reilly’s actions have actually- in my opinion- sped up the secularization of this country.

heard that xmas trees are praying mantis’ nests. that praying mantis love to plant their eggs in conifers(xmas trees). so, if you have a bug phobia, and, a bunch of praying mantises begin to hatch from your xmas tree, you know why.

I’m not buying the “Old testament God of vengeance” idea. If you didn’t mess with Him or His children, you had nothing to worry about. He did require fair treatment of widows, orphans, strangers and debtors, people that other cultures routinely threw under the chariot. And, He didn’t condemn anyone to eternal damnation for not believing in Him.And don’t get me started on “an eye for an eye”. There’s probably not three people on this site who know what it really means. Hint: it’s not literal.

I am not a Biblical literalist. I am an agnostic, and I think that your version and DT’s version of Christianity are reasonable and might even be true. Who knows? I don’t. But I do believe that fundamentalist Biblical literalism is absurd and silly and I am having fun with the ridiculous implications of such beliefs. Of course, there are a lot of people who think that your relativism is worse than unbelief, and that you are reserving a sear for yourself in Hell. If they are right, I’ll see you in Hell. But that’s ok, because those people will make heaven a hell, and maybe we can make hell a heaven. I hear that the devil plays a mean fiddle.

We are certainly blessed to have many other news outlets besides Fox.

Yes, we are, comrade. And we are also blessed to have Wild Bill O’Reilly around for comic relief.

Sometimes I do appreciate the comedic quality that Fox News almost unfailingly provides. I did not appreciate the fact that Bill O’Reilly continually called Dr. Tiller a baby killer for several months and then a short time later, he was killed. Dr. Tiller was a tireless advocate for women and very dedicated medical doctor. He had been shot in both arms a few years before the day he was killed, yet he continued to help women. Dr. Tiller and his staff endured an incredible amount of harassment, yet they continued to help women with their needs. Dr. Tiller was attending church on the day he died, by the way. Dr. Tiller’s place of worship was in fact the place he was killed.

Coyote is the only god I take seriously. I don’t believe in him, but I take him seriously. He’s shiftless and unreliable, and as likely to kick you when you’re down as to give you a hand up. But if he laughs at you then you can laugh right back at him.

This seems consistent with my experience of how the universe works.

“Christians are not obligated to believe that each and every attribution to “the Lord” . . . is, somehow, final/binding/ultimate, or otherwise intended to be a “Law” forever.”Actually, almost all the Christians that I personally know, that describe themselves as ‘devout’, insist on the literal accuracy of scripture. I have heard a number of sermons in their churches specifically warning against the ‘cherry-picking’ of scripture.Also, in many online debates on the issue of creationism v. evolution, I have found that principal motivation to reject the massive amount of scientific data regarding evolution . . . is the conflict with literal scriptural interpretation.Your statement “Christians are not obligated to believe that each and every attribution is, somehow, final/binding/ultimate” is obviously true to me. However, very few Christians I know agree.

It seems that most people I know well are either liberal Protestants, Catholics or Jews. The folks I know are actually not literalists at all. Liberal theology does exist. The right wing does not own the flag, God and country. There are others who are religious besides the right wing.

Well, I know that there are both conservatives and liberals who are believers… you may notice I qualified my statement by saying that I was talking about people I know well, as opposed to everyone I know who seems to be religious. In my husband’s family, there are also Buddhists on his father’s side and they tend to be more liberal than conservative. My husband has physician colleagues who are Muslims and Hindus and they don’t tend to talk about politics at all, so it is hard to know whether they are liberal or conservative. I suspect they can be either/or.

“… we can still live together in harmony.”

Amen and happy new year!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

Joyeux Noel!

Re Ashera:Thank you for that.I know it isn’t as scholarly as it could be but it is so very enlightening. In my chuerch, we believe that Heavenly Father is married and that they two created all there is in the “pre-extistance.” How Joseph Smith, Jr.could have known this is a mystery if one does not believe in devine revalation. Thanks for the link.

The burden of proof falls on the one who claims something exists. It’s up to the believer to make the case for the supernatural. It has been attempted throughout history, but every argument is invalid. So if you believe in the supernatural, what is YOUR evidence?

I’ve said this here before, maybe more than once, but I’ll say it again, since there are people here who value both science and faith.

I’m a liberal-theology Christian. I believe that God created evolution, so I don’t hanker towards a literal 6000-year-old earth. This according to 60-to-70 accurate scientific, interlocking dating methods such as Uranium-235 (U235)-to-lead-207 (Pb207).

I was surprised that someone on this thread thought that Trudeau was advocating violence in today’s strip, speaking of taking something literally which was not intended to be taken literally. At least in terms of the way most thinking people would read today’s strip. LOL.

I also believe that our religious leaders of today can make mistakes. I noticed the other day that the Pope delivered an anti-gay message on Christmas. Why do this? Why be anti anybody if you believe in Jesus who taught everyone to love each other?

“Israel Finkelstein, & Neil Asher Silberman, THE BIBLE UNEARTHED”

I’ve read this book over and over. It is an excellent scientific-archaeological, eye-popping, treatment of actual evidence. Plus I’ve read a number of others like it, such as Denise Schmandt-Besserat’s HOW WRITING CAME ABOUT, Andrew Robinson’s THE STORY OF WRITING, David Sacks’ LANGUAGE VISIBLE, R.E. Taylor and Martin J. Aitken’s CHRONOMETRIC DATING IN ARCHAEOLOGY, etc.

The most interesting ones concern the development of ALPHABETIC SCRIPT which was invented ca. 2000 BCE by Canaanite labor contractors in southern Egypt.

(The exact location of these inscriptions or glyphs of the original letters, such as aleph, are kept secret to avoid vandalism. Only scholars may approach. Are you reading this, Indiana Jones?)

Old. Not current, or funny. Hate to see a cartoonist stumble down the hill like this.

Just now watching a recording of a PBS show on King Solomon’s mines that discusses a lot of these issues. You should Tivo it if it comes on again.

“@pschearerThank you for setting us straight, we were all so confused before you showed us the light.”

pschearer sheds darkness on various subjects (apologies to Sam Clemmons).

Oh, the Fox News “war on Christmas” is as current as it gets, for heaven’s sake! It is December 27, we just got through another Christmas season, in which Fox News pulled the same old story about a supposed war on Christmas. Also, I guess funny is in the eye of the beholder. I thought today’s strip was certainly funny, in terms of what was being discussed by the characters of Hedley and the hanger on being shown today’s strip.

Posted by another commenter (one “Darwin Harmless”) very much elsewhere, but it bears repeating here and I so can buy it:“By the way, I have a friend who talks about her version of God as The Old Bitch Above. Her God is a rather floozy old woman in a pink bath robe with a martini in her hand, looking down on humanity and occasionally effing somebody over just for a giggle, usually as a reaction to hubris. The OBA is capable of helping you, but don’t count on it. It’s really easy to piss her off. She’s unpredictable and whimsical and subject to PMS mood swings. A much easier God to believe in than the standard patriarchal dude of the Christians.”

OBA’s gonna rip UR eyeballs out, Alex, and SHOW ’em to ya.

Yeah, I kinda have the sense She doesn’t much like people who look up Her bath robe.

“… well less than half of Americans today say they believe in the theory of evolution ….”

Want to address just this one assertion. I don’t “believe in the theory of evolution”. It has nothing to do with my faith and is not a faith issue for me. I accept evolution as a science. I do believe that God created evolution, because that stance DOES have to do with my faith and IS a faith issue for me.

I distinguish faith issues from scientific issues. If science should show that Darwinian organic evolution is false, then I would drop it in an instant. The same is NOT true of my faith in God, which is apodictic.

I looked it up…but based on his usage, I’m not sure Dylan did.

TheSulker : Remember, “Evil people can do good but for good people to do evil – that takes religion!”

As much as that might be true, and as much as I dislike most organized religions, it was commonality of religion that was the first thing that allowed human organization to progress beyond the tribal level. Without it we’d all be as Colonial Europeans found Africa in the early 16th and 17th centuries. The cradle of civilization with the baby still in it.

Beginning to think of each other as something beyond being just another competitive animal is the idea that we also are unique in belonging to something bigger. All of us, not just my groups bigger or your groups bigger.

Admittedly not a graceful way to start civilization, but births are from my observation and experience, always messy in some way.