Frazz by Jef Mallett for July 05, 2011

It really bugs me when people see war as the ultimate evil. All of he soldiers that I know are willing to sacrifice their lives so that way people can avoid something much worse than war: slavery under tyranny. (For those who think that America overreacted, please read the grievances against King George that you can find in the Declaration of Independence.)War is an evil, yes. But it is a necessary evil to achieve the good of peace and to avoid those evils that are worse than war. And we should celebrate whenever people have the courage to endure great evils so that greater evils will not take place(In order to stem some of the retorts that will undoubtedly appear, yes, I am aware that not all wars are just, yes, I do believe that it is a horrible tragedy when innocent people are caught in the “crossfire”, and yes, I am aware that war is not the answer to all problems. But sometimes war IS the answer, and then it should not be avoided.)

Millions of people lived in slavery in this country before, during and after the Revolution. It wasn’t until after the Civil War was over that this country could seriously claim to be a place of freedom. Women might argue that wasn’t the case until 1920, when they were first able to vote. Others may claim that the first time was in 1964, when the Civil Rights Act became law. In all of those cases, it was the liberal, progressive people that led the call for change. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Brown, Susan B. Anthony, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and the many others who worked with them were anything but conservative, and were willing to risk everything to bring about change. Therefore, the Tim Gilley post above is one of the most stupid things written ever.

A war doesn’t last long unless there are soldiers on both sides. Often both sides believe they are defending their country from tyrants, whether those tyrants are foreign invaders, “greedy corporations”, or “big government”.

Well, first of all, the Declaration of Independence didn’t start the war. It started in 1775, and by July 4 1776 the revolutionaries had already fought a good number of battles, including during the invasion of Canada. As much as I like Frazz for its usual cleverness, this is just plain ignorant.

Unless it’s talking about bread,any restaurant with the word “crusty” in it’s name is a big red flag!

A niave assumption that the bullies will simply stop on their own. Sometimes we have to stand up to the bullies to stop their tyranny.

Ever notice words change their meaning. Who would believe that a Republican free the slaves or another got me out of Vietnam? Who put troops in that war. What was the next guy who “escalated” to 58,000 dead? What party advocated Jim Jones laws? Yes, the language labels and parties do change.Who’s surge endangers 30,000 of America’s best? What prize did they give him for murdering people? Will “Liberal Arts” colleges survive if we “Tax the rich” for their endowments? How will we “Find the cure” if 35% of donations go to Washington. Think before you use a broad label.

No, war is not the ultimate evil. But unnecessary war-like the one going on over in the Middle East- is just plain foolish. I agree that in the colonies case there was not much else they could do, unless they took Canada’s route. In some cases the only way you can solve a problem is by violence, and that is when war is acceptable.

@Lewreader That is one thing i have noticed in history class. Supposedly the Republican and Democratic parties from the Civil war are still the same parties. But their policies have almost entirely reversed since then. It used to be that the Republicans held the more liberal role.

“A Republic, if you can keep it.” If he could see some of the comments in this thread, Dr. Franklin would despair.

…he probably wouldn’t care much for this strip, either.

Does anyone complaining about Liberals realize that the founding fathers were far more than Liberal, they were radical revolutionaries. It is absurd that conservatives idolize 2 of the most radical documents in human history, the Declaration and the Constitution.

Amazing! corque, if you don’t like America, go to Iran. We are not stopping you … If you don’t like American prosperity which was encouraged by both of these documents you ridicule, go to Kenya and live in squalor. Also, learn a little history. You are absolutely and astonishingly ignorant.

“Liberals” drove Nixon to pull from Vietnam. Simply the truth. Sometimes “the good fight” isn’t fought in the same place.. or on the same continent, or with the same weapons. The blood’s the same — it’s given in different ways.

Those whose land was invaded and stolen didn’t get any freedom until 1926, and are still forced to live in poverty concentration camps unless they somehow manage to escape.

Too much B.S. Too little personal responsibility and common sense.

Trying to apply 21st century labels into an 18th century framework gets very messy…especially with terms as loaded as liberal and conservative. Times change, issues change, and the battle lines are continually redrawn.

I hear you. Read Suzanne Collins “Hunger Games” Trilogy. It’s sugar coated for teen consumption, but tells it like it is. Why ordinary people become soldiers. How politicians use war to further personal agendas — and what is the very best outcome that can be expected. Then it asks the question, “Was it worth it?” SOMETIMES the answer is yes. But never, YES! On independence day, we celebrate our separation from Britain. Would that have been worth losing the lives of my sons and daughters? I very much doubt it. But as a descendant of those who did fight, can I look back and see the benefit? I’m afraid, I’m not educated enough to speculate whether the world would be a better place if they had not fought. But this I do know. The country I live in, though it has many problems, is a good home for me, and I’m glad it’s mine — so I celebrate.

“A Republic, if you can keep it.” Perhaps Franklin’s words are what inspired what is (to my knowledge anyway) the only national anthem that ends with a question mark: “Oh say does that star spangled banner yet wave / o’er the land of the free, and the home of the brave?” Francis Scott Key reminds us there are many ways in which we could lose the Republic that Franklin and Company gave us. Something to think about as we watch the flag waving above what sometimes seems to be turning into the land of the obedient and the home of the timid…

I’m sure the young man is smart enough to know that the Revolutionary War started a year or so before the Declaration was signed. If he does, someone should tell the cartoonist.

At least you get the strip. I have been fighting a war withthe editors of the site since they combined. No matter whatI do I cannot get them to send me the comics I want anddelete the ones I do not want.

yesterday my son said he didn’t want to go to the fireworks because, “It’s just a celebration of war.” I disagreed – both of us are deep down patriots with great respect for those who have fought for the freedoms we enjoy. I celebrate our freedom on that day – the end of the war, not the beginning and I also mourn our lost and slowly disintegrating freedoms. He says that he has felt that way until recently – when all he sees is violence – from all sides – here at home and overseas. He can’t find his way through it. We totally understood each others sentiments. Though we don’t have the answers, at least we aren’t hiding from the questions. Neither does Frazz, and he always tries to give a positive outlook. Maybe our little fellow in the strip needs a history lesson – from a vet! That would fit the strip very well.

Are you sure that’s what you think it’s not saying? I think it’s asking a question. I think the question is worth deliberation, and of merit.

I find it interesting that Caufield is questioning the celebration of the birth of a nation. His own birth is remarkably similar, his mother experienced pain, suffering and struggle to bring him into the world, yet no one questions celebrating his birth. His lack of patriotism is quite frankly, appalling. As for the political discussion in this thread, I think part of the problem here is definitions. According to Google the definition of Liberalism is – “a political orientation that favors social progress by reform and by changing laws rather than by revolution”. So in that sense of the word the founding fathers were not liberals. Another problem is what people mean when they say liberal here. I believe they are referring to a socialist, who envisions themselves as a modern day equivalent to the fictional character, Robin Hood. Robbing the “evil rich” and giving to the poor. A practice which has left us with vast numbers of welfare recipients and no viable solution to reducing the numbers of people trapped in this paradigm. Don’t misunderstand me, people who need help need to be helped but at some point we as a nation need to realize the human condition is not improved with freebies. Conversely, conservatism does not offer adequate solutions to the issues at hand either. My personal opinion is that we need a balanced mixture of the two ideologies, a ying and yang if you will, to solve the social issues of the day.

@LBreaderWhether a person’s relatives are liberal or conservative has nothing to do with that person’s beliefs. Franklin’s son was a Tory, and they had a falling-out because of it. Dr. King’s message of true equality was downright radical for its time, but he presented it in such a convincing way that it could no longer be ignored. You obviously didn’t check their values, or you would have known that Franklin and Jefferson were non-Christians, and disbelieved the Divine Right of Kings, which conservatives believed in back then. They obviously adhered to the beliefs of John Locke, who was considered a radical in his day. Much of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution was tacken out of Locke’s Philosophy.

Apparently accidentally getting food poisoning is a direct analogy to choosing to fight a war for freedom.

Don’t celebrate a war just because it “turns out all right.” All wars “turn out all right” eventually, as memories fade. Celebrate the Revolution for what we got out of it: freedom. Don’t celebrate food poisoning for what you get out of it: a night with the vomit bucket.

It’s real simple – if Jef Mallett wants to keep me as a reader, he drops the politics. otherwise – kerplonk.

Goodbye then, Anweir88! Have fun.

As stated – kerplonk. Losing readers isn’t exactly a good business strategy.

No. Where do you get this tripe?

Frazz is missing the point, as are many here. We do not celebrate because we won, we celebrate because our Founding Fathers (and Mothers) had the courage to risk their welfare for the benefit of their descendants. Mexico celebrates Cinco de Mayo, as they should, even though they eventually lost that war to Spain. And if a sacrifice by someone else or a sacrifice by yourself makes a difference, then I quote John Stuart Mill, that person is ‘a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself’.

I think “most liberals” is way too broad a term. I’m a liberal and I support our troops and what we’re attempting to accomplish. Hell, I was in the Army during the Viet Nam War.

I can somewhat see Caulfield’s point. War is never the ideal situation even when it does become necessary.

if you are going to a place called “the crusty ladle”, you should expect the worst