Doonesbury by Garry Trudeau for November 05, 2011

What instituion of higher learning nowadays has a term that goes beyond the year-end holidays?

I actually teach a similar course in Global Politics for my school. The question of responsibility is often asked – Not yet satisfactorily answered! (Sigh)

If the military and academic historians are gearing up to bury Iraq in revisionist accounts, what use is B.D.‘s and Ray’s experience (“I know the material; I figure gut, no?”)They don’t understand how seriously a “surrender monkey” takes himself before a bunch of apathetic students.

According the the online “Urban Dictionary”, which tracks current slang, one of the meanings of “dark” is: “Having to do with individuality and isolation. Considered good in some circles, with its opposite, light having to do with conformity and lack of integrity.” If this is the case, and I suspect it is, then the dude in panel 4 is not only agreeing with the prof, but thinks that the prof is an island of integrity in a sea of conformist, politically-driven, politically-correct nonsense about Iraq, especially with respect to its “aftermath”, meaning our assessment morally, strategically, etc.

Responsibility, to my mind, means, or ought to mean, consequences. When someone says that he is “accepting full responsibility” for X, the phrase should be followed by, “I will therefore be doing Y” or something of that sort. “Personal responsibility” without at least the possibility of personal consequences is just hot air. But then there is problem of collective responsibility. If, for example, you judge to be wrong a certain military or other action, proposed by the president, approved by the congress, and supported by the America people, then you are not personally responsible, because you oppose it, but America is responsible, we are responsible, and you are part of that “we” and share in that responsibility. Unless you prefer to disavow your country. I am particular tired of those who are quick to embrace and claim a piece of credit for everything good that our country does, and just as quick to deny any responsibility for anything negative. Like flag-wavers who are “proud to be Americans” when there is any credit or praise to be grabbed therefore, but when faced with injustice, pain, or suffering occasioned by the workings or failures of our system, will duck and cover under the all-purpose evasion of “personal responsibility,” a phrase almost always used to mean its opposite: “I’m not responsible for THAT, I shouldn’t have to pay for THAT.” For us, there are many things of which to be proud in the conduct of the Bush-Obama wars of the last ten years; and there are many things of which to be ashamed. We may differ on whether one outweighs the other, but we ought to be honest enough to accept it has been a very mixed bag.

When then test is over lay down your pencil.

I really like the double meaning of this strip. “Will we be responsible for the aftermath” Of course. Why wouldn’t you be?

Ya think that the government’s handlers aren’t already thinking about the war with Iran?

It has worked well in Korea. Our staying on there, and Nixon’s visits and since made China come out of its self-imposed medieval tendencies…and it HAS been a good thing, IF you think that modern medicine and cleaner standards of living for…well, what? tenpercent of Chinese, so far? is a good thing.

If you wouldn’t give up your indoor plumbing and running water, you maybe should rethink whether our wars…ie, impositions of culture, including attempts at our concepts of liberty and fairness…are a good thing.

It’s a far bigger project than the average isolationist wants to take on, but Lincoln was right…‘half slave, half free, cannot stand…’

And if you look around, it means that those who impose their own advantage on most of the populace must be removed so a more equal distribution of liberty…or goods, yes, even money…can take place.

One of the reasons that contemporary ‘conservatives’ want to call off the wars that lead to human betterment over large parts of the globe is just THAT: greedy moneygrabbers who grab and take advantage…are no different in their style of actions and effects than the political dictators…it’s simply a different realm of human behavior. Conservatives don’t ‘get’ that yet. They think that if we pull back the other side will go quiescent and THEY, the conservatives, can keep their ill-gotten financial gains HERE.

They are right about bad behavior, though: it’s a moral problem.

Everyone acting like revisionist histroy is a new thing. Care to take a second look at the Civil War or even the Revolution?

papa Bush realized this would happen if he overthrew Hussein, so I think this is going to happen sooner or later. How much blood and sacrifice do you want for the same end result?

Not many know why we’ve invaded Iraq & Afganistan

Before the christlibs bury this strip under their their intellectual hypocrisy (“fall on my sword for something Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld did re Iraq”), they should reread doughfoot’s just comment:“For us, there are many things of which to be proud in the conduct of the Bush-Obama wars of the last ten years; and there are many things of which to be ashamed.”Christlibs and the professor in this strip fancy themselves “an island of integrity” when in fact they’re thinking like isolationists (in Italian, isola = island).Or, kin B.D.’s memorable term, surrender monkeys.

Works well in Korea? for who? all it does is bankrupt both sides of the civil war(and since we were part of it, us). If the world wants a policeman, they should pay for it, with tribute. Since they are not, we need to bow out(about 60 years ago).

Do you ever wonder why a split country that merged can have a better standard of living for its people than we in the US do? The war machine in the US has ruined our economy and the peoples’ lives. If Nixon did not go to China(Nixon’s revenge), we wouldn’t have the unemployment in our country and communism would be totally bankrupt.

There’s no indication that this is a noncredit class. It started in the daytime, and has traditional-age students in it. Ray is using his GI Bill to pay for tuition. All in all, sounds like a credit class to me, and therefore yes, there would be a final exam. Even in universities that cater to adult students (like this one: http://www.umuc.edu), there are finals. In my experience, it wasn’t until my Ph.D classes that finals were ditched completely, in favor of your whole grade riding on one paper.

@Parrotface Parrot — you mean Obama leaving Iraq on the day that Bush agreed to?

You mean the withdrawal timetable that HRH Bush II signed? That agreement? Blood and wealth that were squandered on lies?

Oh, if that was done, it was done long ago by Bush & Co removing that bastion of resistance to Iran, Saddam Hussein. But you underestimate the animosity and rivalry between Arabs and Persians, which goes back 1500 years. Just because they are both Shiites doesn’t change that, — any more than being fellow Catholic nations or fellow Protestant ones ever prevented competition and rivalry between two states.

“We came in peace, for all Mankind”. Is on a plaque on the moon. That is not a bad accomplishment, which many “conservatives” never seem to want to apply. “W” never intended to follow the “pullout date”, and conservatives are angry we haven’t done as planned to "renegotiate’ with the Iraqis, who have the silly notion it is THEIR country.

Some time ago I spoke with two Vietnamese computer specialists working at our office. One had been in the Vietnamese Navy when I was there in ‘67 and he’d spent time in a “reeducation camp”.The other was born in a small village I knew, a couple years after I left, and he didn’t really “see” the war, his father was a doctor. While both had different experiences, they both said the same thing; the best thing that happened to Viet Nam, was our LEAVING!

The ex-Navy guy came out of the camp, got more education in computers, and was able to get a contract to come to the U.S. and work, not for “freedom”, but for the money. The son of the doctor was amazed when I described his house, and he noted that at no time did those “savages from the north” bother his family, primarily yes, because his father WAS a doctor, and respected.

My son participated in “war events” in Iraq. I do wonder where things are going. My greatest concern is those who now focus on Iran, the new “enemy”, the new “bad guys”, the endless war for war, called “defense”, masking the real war, for never-ending profits.

The real thing America needs to focus on is “We came in Peace for All Mankind”, perhaps leaving only a footprint, and lands otherwise unchanged, or at least, undamaged, by our hand.

Actually, I was writing in protest against simplistic black/white views of responsibility. And I said acquiesce in the sense that we do not proceed to massacre the other side if we lose an election. Do you think CORRECT those who regard Obama as “not their president” and are more determined to make him fail than make the country succeed? Or worse, those who would assassinate him rather than “acquiesce” in his presidency? Do you blame Michelle Obama for saying that she was more proud of her country than ever before when her country elected Obama? I say acquiesce to mean that we remain within the law, carry out our opposition to policies that we oppose within the framework of the law and do no rise up in armed revolt every time we don’t get our way. When Katrina wrecked New Orleans because of the failures of government at many levels, did you consider it none of your affair? Should the taxpayers have said that they would do nothing to help the suffering because the problem was caused by somebody else? “Any Nation bears a form of collective responsibility for its external actions.” Agreed. And for its internal actions as well. Or inactions. Were you one of those who said, “I’m not a racist, so I don’t owe anything to those who have suffered under the effects of the rascism, institutional and individual, under which for generations my kind benefited and some people have suffered”? I suspect your heart is in the right place, but you seem to have misunderstood my point entirely. No one should puff himself up with pride for being an American, and then pretend that the less savory things that America has done were done by somebody else.

You need to read up on the Roman republic, on which our Founding Fathers (Adams, Madison, Jefferson) deliberately modeled our Constitution.You might start by understanding that Caesar was killed by republicans for trying to make himself a tyrant (Shakespeare has a play about it).

I doubt that either B.D. or Ray is going to “rip this guy a new one.” (In fact, I would be surprised if we even pick this continuity up on Monday, although we may return from time to time before year’s end).

That it is B.D. and not G.T. who sees the professor as a “surrender monkey” was made clear yesterday; B.D. uses ther term BEFORE the prof mentions having been in the chain of command. This guy was THERE, just as much as B.D. and Ray (well, more than B.D. but less than Ray, probably).

This is not even “revisionist history”; this is a primary source, a man who was (1) a first hand witness (a participant, nonetheless), (2) can take a critical/analytical view of what he saw, and (3) is honest enough to share how (and why) his own opinions changed between when he got in and when he got out.

@FritzoidSorry, Fritzoid, but I don’t think GBT portrays the prof as “honest enough.” But he may equate the prof with himself as a fellow-ironist.That grim joke about being “responsible for the aftermath” sounds like an aging, less energetic GBT bequeathing this violent world to a younger generation.In fact, the whole strip is a self-parody:“Remember, this [comic strip] is unfolding in real time”“[You’re] responsible [for the future], but it won’t be on the test [i.e., I’m not going to teach you about what I myself don’t know].”

A revisionist is anyone who doesn’t agree with your personal take on historical events. History is much less objective than most people realize, because historical accounts consist of far more than simple facts all laid out in a row.

We must agree to disagree, palin; I don’t see the professor as an ironist at all. The “dark” joke about we (Americans of ALL generations) being responsible for whatever aftermath occurs is framed as a joke, but it still reflects the truth.

I think Trudeau is using the professor as a mouthpiece for his own views of the wisdom (or lack thereof) of the Iraqi adventure. Trudeau wasn’t in combat himself, but he’d visited troops on the ground and it’s no secret that he solicits opinions from those who’ve seen (and are currently seeing) active duty; he’s “plugged in” to what these guys think and have thought.

There are some people who’ve thought all along that this was agood idea, and some people who’ve thought all along that it was a bad idea, and there are some people who’ve changed their minds over the course of ten years. “I was for the war until I was against it” isn’t necessarily hypocrisy; I’d say it isn’t even usually hypocrisy, although any public figures who dare to change their minds about something as its repercussions unfold is leaving themselves open to charges of “flip-flopping.” Nobody wants to admit to sending young people off to die for a bad idea, but it’s really stupid to CONTINUE to have them die once you’ve REALIZED it’s a bad idea. About some things, those who were calling the shots were lying to us. On some other things, they were simply wrong. (And you should never attribute to malice something that can be perfectly explainable by incompetence.)

I admire Trudeau for his willingness to skewer the excesses of the Left as well as those of the Right, but it still seems to me that his own leanings are primarily to the Left. I have no idea what his religious beliefs (if any) are, but I’d agree with you that he’s not a “christlib” as you appear to be using the term. I don’t know if you’re including ME in that term either, although if you are I’m obliged to inform you that I’m not a Christian…